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   Author  Topic: Non-occidental key signatures  (Read 9420 times)
Question: Do you support the proposal below?

Yes     11 (78.5%)
No     3 (21.4%)

Total votes: 14

Please read this before voting

     

JP
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #15 on: Apr 29th, 2009, 4:07pm »
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on Apr 29th, 2009, 2:41pm, Sylvain Machefert wrote:
Still the problem how to export this into MIDI ?

As much as I understand, MIDI instruments are built on the concept of "note number", i.e. the program sends a command saying that note number "N" has to be played, and the instrument executes the command. Note number "N" can be an actual note or a drum sound, or any kind of sound.
There does not seem to be any way of telling instruments how to tune notes, and therefore playing unequal half tones with a MIDI instrument would only be feasible if there were specific MIDI instruments to support that feature. Such instruments should either support a "fine tuning" mechanism -- and corresponding MIDI commands would have to be defined -- or have the 24 quarter-tone notes proposed by Naghmeh recorded with a specific number -- and even that would not be agreed by a big proportion of Middle Eastern musicians, as the fine tuning of a specific note would differ according to the scale/mode in use at a given place in the score.
In both cases this would need to develop a huge piece of software for supporting these "Middle Eastern MIDI instruments".
If my assumptions are right, the only possible solution would be direct output to the computer's sound card and/or generation of mp3 files.
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #16 on: Apr 30th, 2009, 11:28am »
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Naghmeh
 
In order to make this discussion progress, could you please first have a look at this address and make an example in myr format with a scale corresponding to one of your modes with the proper adjustment.
 
Thanks
« Last Edit: Apr 30th, 2009, 11:29am by JP » offline
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures   beshin.mus
« Reply #17 on: May 16th, 2009, 7:14am »
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Hello again
 
In response to Mr.Jp's request ,I have prepared a piece consist of two key signature of Iran folkloric music.I have chosen a famous with a simple notation structure one.
(Bb,Eb,A keron & Bb,F#,E keron)
Please find it as attachment .This piece was prepared for Tar instrument which is not available in HA so I chose another instrument with a closest sound to Tar.(Tar in Persian language means string. Tar seems to be father of Guitar)  
I found Microtonal concept in HA a very powerful feature.
In a piece of single key signature , it works amazingly and any eastern tone can be produced without  repeating of comma signs here and there in the piece.
But I couldn't find a facility to stop applying already introduced commas after new key signature.although it was possible to stop it by changing some features of a note like its color and shape.but it needs to look for any single note.
summarizing all the points:
1- in a single key signature piece any commas of a tone can be applied to the whole piece easily.
2-in a double or more key signature piece we need some facility to stop applying commas to the notes introduced in the previous key signature and maybe disable the next key signature changes for the current one.(if there is such facility please let me know).In the attached example A and E commas appear after both key signatures.  
3-playing sound of trimolo of a note that its tone have been changed by commas does not seem satisfactory.but in many cases we import trimolo sound of an instrument as a new instrument and combining them on the score so it is not a primary point to be solved .
« Last Edit: May 16th, 2009, 11:49am by naghmeh » offline
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures   beshin_2.myr
« Reply #18 on: May 18th, 2009, 9:32am »
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Hello!
 
Very interesting music, indeed.
 
Please consider the following suggestion:
    In the attached file, I created a second staff and the melody is now split in 2 parts, corresponding to the change of tonality/mode. You could create a second set of rules to apply to the second staff, which would correspond to the needs of the second tonality/mode (please give a simple name to that concept, I suppose you have one in your native language).
    Afterwards, you'll just have to merge the two staves to get eventually obne single staff containing the whole melody.
« Last Edit: May 18th, 2009, 9:32am by JP » offline
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #19 on: May 18th, 2009, 10:16am »
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About "tonality and mode", just to make clear what I mean:
 
In western music, we have several modes, the most common ones being the so called "Major" and "minor" modes. A mode corresponds the the series of intervals which constitute its modal aspect. For instance the series in Major mode is 1, 1, 1/2, 1, 1, 1, 1/2 and in minor mode it is 1, 1/2, 1, 1, 1/2, 11/2, 1/2
There are other modes like "Lydian", "Aeolian", etc.
Theoretically any sequence of intervals summing to 12 half tones could be considered as a mode, e.g. the "tone mode" extensively used by Claude Debussy, which is 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1.
As modern western instruments use to produce "equal half tones", there is no mode containing "unequal half tones".
There are also subtleties like the series of intervals being different when the melody goes up or down.  
 
As you can start the scale from any note,  you can tell that a tune is in "Bb Major" or in "F# minor", etc. and -- as we use "equal half tones" -- it's possible to "modulate" from any scale to any other one; there are traditional ways of making these modulations in a way that suits with our habits, essentially based on "common notes", i.e. the notes which belong to both scales. If the 2 scales have no "common notes", we make as series of 2 modulations (or more) using temporary intermediate scales.
 
My assumption is that you should have something like that in Persian music, i.e. a mode would correspond to the series of intervals, but if you change the pitch of the initial note, you could have different scales in the same mode. This is feasible with fretless string instruments or human voices. It may be more difficult with flutes or similar instruments, as the number of holes is limited, but professional players can probably produce a large variety of sounds with appropriate fingerings and well controlled  strength of blow.
 
In the example you gave ("Beshin") the first part is written in a scale based on Bb (let's call it "Bb mode 1"), the second part in a scale based on D ("D mode 2"). My question is: would it be possible to "transpose" the same melody in respectively "F mode 1" and "A mode 2", e.g. the same melody 5 half tones below, or would it be considered as a transgression of musical rules?
 
Using HA's microtonal and rules functionalities, it should be possible to define a rule to each "mode" and apply it to a melody. Using the "trick" I explained in the previous post, you could use different modes and scales in the same score.
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #20 on: May 19th, 2009, 7:39am »
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Hello Mr.Jp
 
Your assumption is absolutely right.By changing the tonic (initial note) we could have different scales in the same mode.So different number of flats ,sharps and commas will appear in the key signature of that mode based on chosen tonic and is not considered as a transgression of rules.
Also thanks for your beautiful guidelines on "Beshin" piece.
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #21 on: May 19th, 2009, 6:40pm »
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Hello Naghmeh!
 
So, if I understand well, we can consider that the basic functions required for Persian music are available in HA as long as writing notes and making them played is concerned.
 
I suggest that:
  • you create an extensive list of "Persian modes", with the detailed description of these modes expressed -- say -- in hundredth of tone
  • you name these modes in latin alphabet, as it's currently a sort of international standard (whatever you can think of that situation)
  • you define rules for each mode to implement the appropriate sounds
  • you define a visual representation of the "key signature" to insert at the beginning of the score and at every place where there is a change of mode; that may well be a collection of sharps and flats as you did in your example, but you may have different needs to make sure that each mode can be easily identified

When these tasks have been completed and the "proof of concept" has been done by making sure that a consistent list of scores are correctly supported and agreed by competent people, we can then try to help you automatize some of these tasks in MyScript, and make requests for some additional features in HA if it's considered as necessary.
Sorry that we cannot help you in the first round of tasks, as they require a fair knowledge of Persian music.
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #22 on: May 20th, 2009, 9:42am »
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Hello  Mr.Jp
 
Thank you for your suggestions.I will do my best to accomplish it if I can.Since most of the requirements already exist in the books I have but still should be confirmed by  experts who are not easily available to me.
It was a very fruitful discussion we had.First, I got familiar with microtonal concept in HA which can solve  most of my problems.Second, I was forced to study more on special aspect of our traditional music theory and I found it much easier than I thought it before so it encouraged me to study more.Third, it was a good chance for me to revive my English language!.Fourth, I enjoyed too much to talk to a talented man like you.
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #23 on: May 20th, 2009, 10:43am »
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Hello Naghmeh!
 
It's a great pleasure to have the opportunity of getting information about Persian music.
Keep us informed of your progress and potential issues. Wa will always be pleased to bring you as much help as we can.
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #24 on: May 29th, 2009, 9:11am »
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Hi!
Last week I was in a greek songs workshop, and the singer-teacher used a kanun (kanonaki in Greek).
The kanonaki has the natural notes c, d, e, f, g, a, b.
 
Before each song, she retune (using a little "lever") her instrument to use a quarter tone between c# and d for example, and during all the song the scale stays c, c#+1/4tone, e, f, g...
 
For french reader : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanûn_(instrument)
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #25 on: May 29th, 2009, 11:00am »
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bizarre le lien??
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Cordialement. Mick
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #26 on: May 29th, 2009, 8:03pm »
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c'est l'accent... le forum n'aime pas
alors voilà --> http://tinyurl.com/ntudvm
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #27 on: Aug 4th, 2009, 8:11am »
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I would describe this request as the more generalized "Support for tunings other than 12-tone octave (2:1)-framed".
 
My interest in this stems from having learned about the Bohlen-Pierce scale, which has a framing interval (semantic equivalent of the octave) at a frequency ratio of 3:1 instead of the octave's 2:1, and divides the framing interval into thirteen "semitones".  There are both Just Intonation and Equal Tempered versions of this scale.  To attempt to use the existing capabilities for microtonal adjustment and rules to "re-tune" Melody/Harmony assistant to this scale would be a major project in itself, and would still not allow me to easily use Bohlen-Pierce triads (chords) in my compositions.
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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #28 on: Aug 4th, 2009, 8:29am »
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Très bien!!
Voir les guitares aussi!
« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2009, 8:30am by Mick Rochard » offline

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Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #29 on: Aug 17th, 2009, 11:38pm »
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A freeware is progressively becoming a standard tool for non-tempered tuning: Scala. Here :
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/
 
As you will see, it can export tunings to a large number of synthetizers.
 
Some softwares natively support Scala tuning files. As an example, Aria, the new sample player for Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.
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