Atelier Démocratique « Non-occidental key signatures »
 Welcome, Guest.
 You can read all messages, but to be able to post,
 please Login or Register.
Nov 24th, 2017, 2:23pm 
   Atelier Démocratique
   New views & staff types

   Non-occidental key signatures
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2 3  Reply | Notify of replies | Send Topic | Print
   Author  Topic: Non-occidental key signatures  (Read 9415 times)
Question: Do you support the proposal below?

Yes     11 (78.5%)
No     3 (21.4%)

Total votes: 14

Please read this before voting

     

Olivier Guillion
Administrator
*****






   
WWW | Email

Gender: male
Posts: 6033
Non-occidental key signatures  
« on: Sep 5th, 2007, 9:59am »
Quote | Modify

Description:
Enabling to write and play non-occidental key signatures (scales), i.e. with quarter/half sharp or flat (or any other comma value) in the key signature.
It could have been solved by a set of rules, and a custom display of the key signature, but this method would not enable the custom key signature to be changed in the middle of the piece.  
 
The program structure has then to be changed to manage these keys.
 
Difficulty:

 
Product(s):
« Last Edit: Sep 5th, 2007, 9:59am by Olivier Guillion » offline

Olivier Guillion
Myriad Software
Mick Rochard
Board Full Member
***






   
WWW |

Gender: male
Posts: 989
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #1 on: Sep 5th, 2007, 10:49am »
Quote | Modify

Bonjour,
 
Je vote oui car très utile pour moi qui travaille beaucoup sur les musiques arabes.
Merci de proposer cette possibilité.
Mick
offline

Cordialement. Mick
http://www.mick-rochard.com
Francois Desjardins
Beta-tester
Board Master
*****



Écrire et écrire encore de la musique!

   
WWW | Email

Gender: male
Posts: 2355
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #2 on: Sep 5th, 2007, 12:03pm »
Quote | Modify

Dans le respect de ce qui est demandé par Myriad:
Quote:
S'il vous plait, si vous considérez ne pas être concerné par l'option, ou si elle ne serait pas utile pour ce que vous faites avec le logiciel, ne votez pas.

             je ne vote pas.
 
Mais si je savais que cela retarde l'évolution du logiciel dans sa version occidentale, je voterais non. La demeure principale a encore des besoins. C'est tout de même un 5 en terme de difficulté.
« Last Edit: Sep 5th, 2007, 12:06pm by Francois Desjardins » offline


François Desjardins
Sylvain Machefert
Administrator
*****






   
WWW |

Gender: male
Posts: 5938
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #3 on: Sep 5th, 2007, 1:19pm »
Quote | Modify

J'ai voté oui.
Actuellement je m'en passe car j'ai assez de "retard" avec tous les trucs que je dois recopier sur H.A. et qui n'en nécessitent pas, mais je compte bien m'attaquer à la musique turque et arabe, surtout si un pote se met au oud et qu'on monte un groupe !
 
Donc pas d'urgence actuellement pour moi, mais ça permettrait d'explorer de nouveaux horizons tonaux.
offline

VS languages demos on my MUSL
HA+VS+PdfToMusic Win7
Keyboards: Nord Electro 3, MIDI controller+Ketron SD4 expander
abdulo
Board Newbie
*




Qanun

   


Gender: male
Posts: 3
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #4 on: Sep 5th, 2007, 3:49pm »
Quote | Modify

on Sep 5th, 2007, 9:59am, Olivier Guillion wrote:
Description:
Enabling to write and play non-occidental key signatures (scales), i.e. with quarter/half sharp or flat (or any other comma value) in the key signature.
It could have been solved by a set of rules, and a custom display of the key signature, but this method would not enable the custom key signature to be changed in the middle of the piece.  
 
The program structure has then to be changed to manage these keys.
 
Difficulty:

 
Product(s):

 
Can some one explain how would you make for example B & D   to be half flat in all the score using rules function.
 
Thanks
Abdul
offline
ajourdane
Board Newbie
*






   
WWW | Email

Gender: male
Posts: 41
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #5 on: Jan 31st, 2008, 11:26am »
Quote | Modify

J'ai voté oui mais je ne vois pas pourquoi cela génère tant de difficulté à réaliser.
 
Dans l'affichage des tonalités, il suffirait d'ajouter des échelles, Pentatoniques, modes orientaux, modes arabo-andaloux. On pourrait passer d'un pentatonique asiatique à un Ré M occidental, je ne vois pas où est le problème.
 
Simplement, dès qu'on met une note, ça afficherait directement les quarts de tons avec les symboles déjà présents dans le logiciel. La notation est quasi-universelle (le gamelan de Java mis à part).
Il faut trouver une codification qui permet de savoir en début de portée (qui peut avoir plus ou moins de lignes ou un aspect différent) dans quelle échelle on se trouve.
 
 
++
offline

A. JOURDANE
Olivier Guillion
Administrator
*****






   
WWW | Email

Gender: male
Posts: 6033
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #6 on: Jan 31st, 2008, 5:44pm »
Quote | Modify

C'est difficile à réaliser car le concept d'altération, dans le programme, se limite au bémol (ou double bémol), bécarre et dièse (ou double dièse).
Les autres intervalles, quarts de tons ou autres, se notent par des effets "commas", réglables.
 
Pouvoir noter des quarts de tons à l'armure implique de faire en sorte que ceux-ci soient des altérations "standard", avec tout ce que cela implique (affichage, jeu, calcul des noms de notes et d'accords, harmonisation, etc)
 
De plus, de telles gammes seraient difficiles à jouer en MIDI "de base", où le "pitch bend" s'applique à tout le canal et pas seulement à une note. Donc problème lorsqu'on joue des accords.
offline

Olivier Guillion
Myriad Software
ajourdane
Board Newbie
*






   
WWW | Email

Gender: male
Posts: 41
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #7 on: Feb 1st, 2008, 11:11pm »
Quote | Modify

Je comprends.
 
[Hors Sujet]
Il y a cependant des progrès certains à faire en composition musicale occidentale en incluant les quarts de tons. Imaginez toutes les possibilités de gammes, d'accords, d'échelles... Il faudrait un piano avec 54 touches par octaves. Je crois bien que des musicologues hongrois se sont lancés dans cette expérimentation mais je ne retrouve plus la source.
 
Finalement, les trackers étaient pas mal sur ce plan là aussi où tout effet de bend s'applique à la note et non à tout le canal...
Et il n'y a pas moyen d'inclure des modèles avec des effets prédéfinis ?
offline

A. JOURDANE
naghmeh
Board Newbie
*





   


Posts: 10
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #8 on: Mar 30th, 2009, 10:42am »
Quote | Modify

Hello everybody
This feature is absolutely required by all those who writes eastern music.Even in recent years commas has been introduced to some western instruments like guitar.sooner or later this feature should be added to HA.
personally I have written some pieces and it was really exhausting to put commas every where.Please help us to avoid this repetition of commas.
offline
JP
Board Master
*****






   
WWW | Email

Gender: male
Posts: 2390
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #9 on: Mar 30th, 2009, 11:38am »
Quote | Modify

on Mar 30th, 2009, 10:42am, naghmeh wrote:
Hello everybody
This feature is absolutely required by all those who writes eastern music.Even in recent years commas has been introduced to some western instruments like guitar.sooner or later this feature should be added to HA.
personally I have written some pieces and it was really exhausting to put commas every where.Please help us to avoid this repetition of commas.

What do you mean by "Eastern music"? There are a lot of different sorts of "Eastern music", each having its own scales and modes, to be played by multiples instruments which have several ways to be tuned and cannot all be played together because of these differences. I don't believe you can include classical Chinese music in the same categories as classical Iranian music, or Balinese music, etc.
If some groups of HA users are interested in transcribing these "eastern musics" they should work in a group to explain to us ignorants the different scales and tunings, and all these things that we just know do exist.
 
I don't believe that the concept of "key signature" is appropriate to address these issues, even in contemporary western music, as most of the time "micro intervals"  do not systematically apply to the same "note".  
One could also argue to build completely different types of scales, etc.  see here
 
If we want to make some progress in that area -- which can first be addressed by scripts rather than including new functions in the core product -- there is a need for a detailed specification of what is really necessary, with a general agreement of all people interested in that area. Just saying "it would be nice to have that feature" without defining in detail what exactly that feature should be, is wishful thinking.
« Last Edit: Mar 30th, 2009, 7:39pm by JP » offline
naghmeh
Board Newbie
*





   


Posts: 10
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #10 on: Mar 31st, 2009, 7:04am »
Quote | Modify

Hello everybody  
 
I did not get exactly dear JP point since my overall knowledge of music theory is just basic.
If he means that there are some other ways to avoid repetition of commas that is a great help and can solve some of problems instead of defining different music scales which can be different in Persian,Arab,Indian and Chinese Traditional musics and moreover can not be changed in one piece but the question remains unchanged "How".I tried the link "here" introduced by him  but it did not work.
you can hear some beautiful pieces from Mrs Afshar a famous classical guitarist in US  that  uses commas widely.
The absence of a good music composing software capable of handling commas has pushed many eastern music creator to use keybords and VSTs instead to overcome the problem and music composers wondering what to do.
 
offline
JP
Board Master
*****






   
WWW | Email

Gender: male
Posts: 2390
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #11 on: Mar 31st, 2009, 11:17am »
Quote | Modify

Sorry fo the "here" missing: it's a pointer to a site that is currently being reorganized.  
Try that one instead.
 
Quote:
The absence of a good music composing software capable of handling commas has pushed many eastern music creator to use keyboards and VSTs instead to overcome the problem and music composers wondering what to do.

Nobody can create a piece of software without explicit or implicit specification.
 
Western musical notation systems have been elaborated over centuries, and there is enough documentation about them to be considered as detailed specifications. Defining a notation system that suits the needs of Eastern musicians is something that cannot be made by outsiders. Most professional "Eastern musicians" have a good knowledge of the western notation systems. They are able to define their own system if they want, but when I addressed that point, most of them considered it as inappropriate because our system concentrates on relative height and duration, whereas in other styles of music other topics are much more important and cannot be included in the western notation otherwise than fuzzy words, like "allegro religioso", or "allegretto moderato ma non troppo" .
 
In brief, my point is that "non occidental key signature" is an "occidental concept", by which we take for granted that our notation system is able to encompass all styles of music by just making few adaptations to it. Some would consider that position as arrogant, some other ones as ridiculous, personally I just consider it as vain.
 
Now let's consider something else: a (group of) western musician, used to the western notation system, want  to include some variations in the way music is written, i.e. they have defined they own symbols for what they want to record in writing.
At that stage, which is to say "when there is at least a draft specification", we can probably use the MyrScript language to bring some help to them. If these scripts get enough acceptance, we can consider the functionality as candidate for inclusion in the core product.
Taking into account the case of Mrs Afshar, if she is interested, she has probably documented HOW she wants commas indicated in writing in her scores, and then we can consider if there is a simple way to support that additional notation.
« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2009, 11:27am by JP » offline
naghmeh
Board Newbie
*





   


Posts: 10
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #12 on: Apr 5th, 2009, 10:34am »
Quote | Modify

Hello everybody
Special thanks to Mr JP for good explanation of  the problem.
But there is nothing perfect in this world include software.
As an example: it is a long time that we are using office series software form Microsoft with our Alphabet and still we have some problem with these nice software.but the point is we are using them successfully although they are not ideal for our language.  
I have a huge experience with different technical software  from 10,000 to 100,000 US dollar in price at my office and tell you the truth none of them are perfect.they are very famous and I do not want to name them.  
What is the problem if we can use your software to define our scales easily? it is a great and a forward step to a would be ideal software.If it is still not enough for every thing but is more attractive and much more suitable for eastern musician.
Just as a new suggestion and for thinking: why we should define "predefine functions" ?  One of beautiful aspect of HA is its great flexibility for importing and reconstruction of sounds with different filters that can be adjusted graphically.So we can think about the same principle for "how to play" an instrument. Good Idea. isn't it?
offline
JP
Board Master
*****






   
WWW | Email

Gender: male
Posts: 2390
Re: Non-occidental key signatures   Persian_music.pdf
« Reply #13 on: Apr 29th, 2009, 11:32am »
Quote | Modify

I continued that discussion by private mail with Naghmeh yesterday.
He sent me a very interesting article about Persian (i.e. Iranian) music (see attachment)
 
What I understand from that article is that the equivalent of western "modes" (or "scales" or both?) consists in a choice of up to seven sounds which are not exactly the same as in contemporary western music, i.e. standard intervals are not an exact number of "half tones".
This is not surprising, as even western music was until 3 centuries ago based on unequal intervals. Even the "well tempered keyboard" by J.S. Bach didn't mean that all so-called "half tones" were supposed to be absolutely equal.
The big point in "(almost) equal half tones" is that it allows modulations from any scale to any other scale and transposition in any key. There are a lot of disadvantages  that we don't notice because we are constantly hearing the same type of music.
 
If we want to provide assistance to Nagmeh, we will probably need the skills of several members of our "Myriad community".
  • MyrScript, as the solution has (at least first) to be implemented by scripts
  • tone adjustments: I know there is a facility in HA to define the pitch of notes in "fractions of tones" other than 1 or 1/2, but I have no experience in that area
  • font definition, as Nagmeh introduces some new "accidental signs" in his document, plus probably the support of Farsi and Arabic fonts
  • and of course Nagmeh's knowledge in the domain

« Last Edit: Apr 29th, 2009, 11:37am by JP » offline
Sylvain Machefert
Administrator
*****






   
WWW |

Gender: male
Posts: 5938
Re: Non-occidental key signatures  
« Reply #14 on: Apr 29th, 2009, 2:41pm »
Quote | Modify

Interesting !
I like the concept of tunable # and b, harmony computation (chords) could continue as today...
Still the problem how to export this into MIDI ?
offline

VS languages demos on my MUSL
HA+VS+PdfToMusic Win7
Keyboards: Nord Electro 3, MIDI controller+Ketron SD4 expander
Pages: 1 2 3  Reply | Notify of replies | Send Topic | Print

« Previous topic | Next topic »

« Atelier Démocratique » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.1!
YaBB © 2000-2002,
Xnull. All Rights Reserved.

Top of page
Legal information Last update:  (c) Myriad