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   Author  Topic: Default Lyrics  (Read 8322 times)
Question: Do you support the proposal below?

Yes     18 (85.7%)
No     3 (14.2%)

Total votes: 21

Please read this before voting

     

Olivier Guillion
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Default Lyrics  
« on: Nov 8th, 2005, 7:41am »
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Description:
In a song with multiple Staves with Lyrics, each Staff would have an optional setting (reached from the Lyrics Text Style dialog as a drop-down menu) to select any other Lyrics Staff to be its Default Lyrics staff. Basically, for notes that have no Lyric syllable attached (not the same as notes with a space causing carryover of the previous lyric syllable), it would use the Lyric of the nearest note to that note's Start Position as it exists in the Default Lyric Staff.
The Default Lyrics would be sung by Virtual Singer, show up in Karaoke mode, etc., but would not be printed.
 
Difficulty:

 
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Olivier Guillion
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Re: Default Lyrics  
« Reply #1 on: Nov 9th, 2005, 4:33pm »
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If this is difficult to do in software... Why not copy and paste the lyrics from one staff to another ? I am not sure what problem the proposal intends to solve.
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Re: Default Lyrics  
« Reply #2 on: Nov 14th, 2005, 7:43am »
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I don't get it either.  
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Re: Default Lyrics  
« Reply #3 on: Nov 14th, 2005, 10:41pm »
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I would value this addition, and I would further suggest that if multiple voices exist within a single staff (or bracketted set of staves) that the default should be shared lyrics.
 
The majority of the work that I do with HA is for primarily hompohonic a cappella music.
 
The standard notation for homophonic choral music is one set of lyrics centered between two staves each containing two voice parts - for a total of 4 voices sharing the same lyrics.
 
The current method of copying lyrics from voice to voice is sufficient; however, it has the following drawbacks:
 
-  Adds visual clutter of repeated lyrics in each voice, and doesn't look like a "normal" choral score.
-  Requires repeatitive "busy work" for each piece that is inputted / imported - Workable, but not desireable.
 
Thanks,
- J
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Re: Default Lyrics   HomophonicCoralMusicStandardForm.bmp
« Reply #4 on: Nov 15th, 2005, 4:33am »
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So the feature will allow lyrics Like this?
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COMALite J
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Re: Default Lyrics  
« Reply #5 on: Apr 26th, 2006, 12:16am »
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As the original submitter of this Request from way back in the old Democratic Workshop, allow me to clarify.
 
Right now, each Staff has one set of Lyrics. Those Lyrics apply only to that one Staff for all purposes, including printing, Virtual Singer, and Karaoke Mode display.
 
Much choral sheet music (typical hymn books, for instance) shows one set of Lyrics applied to all vocal Staves, except in places where the different Singers sing the Lyrics that actually exist for that Staff, as attached Staff Lyrics.
 
This includes the individual component Staves of Merged Staves. Say you have an SATB song, each Part entered on a separate Staff so that you can assign a different VS Singer Voice to each Part. You then Merge the Soprano and Alto together, and the Tenor and Bass together, to form the traditional hymnbook-like SA / TB arrangement. You want the shared lyrics between the Staff.
 
The usual way would be to have attached the Lyrics to the Alto Staff prior to the Merge, and not have any Lyrics entered for Soprano, Tenor, or Bass, except where they differ from the Alto. That would look fine, and print fine, but Virtual Singer would then sing the Lyrics only for the Alto, except where the Parts differ in Lyrics!
 
Possible workarounds for the current versions include:
 
#1. Unchecking the "Display texts, diagrams..." checkbox in the "Staff Display Options" dialog (middle of left side).
 
Purpose: This allows you to enter Lyrics on all Staves so that VS will sing them, but only display the one that you want to visually appear.
 
Disadvantages: First, you still have to enter the Lyrics seperately for every Staff (or at least Copy and Paste them), thus increasing the time and effort needed by the user to do a common task (not to mention having to go into that dialog and unchecking the box for every Part except the one whose Lyrics should appear). Where there are minor differences in the lyrics, Copy and Paste has to be followed by manual Editing of the Lyrics, which can be tricky indeed, and human-error-prone.
 
Secondly, unchecking this checkbox hides all texts and diagrams, not just Lyrics. This is rarely desirable.
 
Thirdly, it does nothing for the situation where Lyrics differ in places for the differing Voices, which is part of the whole purpose of this. You could put the differing lyrics in to be sung, but they wouldn't appear nor print, even if you used manual text objects attached to the Staff to show them, since those get hidden as well!
 
#2. Manually Invisible Lyrics: for all Staves except the one whose Lyrics you want visible, edit the Lyrics Text Style to be 1-point white text.
 
Advantage: Solves the "hides all texts and diagrams as well as just Lyrics" problem of Workaround #1. This does allow us to use visible manual text objects to show the differing Lyrics.
 
Disadvantages: All of the other disadvantages of Workaround #1, plus a bit harder to set up (at least Workaround #1 only involves unchecking a single checkbox found in a dialog for each affected Staff), and has the additional disadvantage that unless properly positioned, the "hidden" text can still appear over objects which should be visible, causing "gaps" to appear in them as if the printer ink jets (or whatever) malfunctioned at that point.
 
Version 9.2's new Styled Text feature would allow us to use this method to hide all Lyrics except those that differ between Staves, by only making the shared Lyrics 1-point white, leaving the differing Lyrics text visible and printable. By cleverly positioning the Lyrics lines of the multiple component Staves in a set of Merged Staves, we can get the proper appearance, and have it sing. This would be a lot of work, though.
 
#3: Use of a VS Lyrics hack to hide lyric syllables and still allow them to be sung. The basic hack is to enclose in [square brackets] each syllable of Shared Lyrics on Staves other than the one whose Lyrics should appear, and have only a space for the visible Lyric. Using a Hard Space ("^") would prevent melismas from continuing improperly over such hidden syllables. After all, if [square brackets] are in a syllable, VS only sings what's inside them, and HA only shows or prints what's outside them. The original purpose was to allow easy overriding of pronunciation (as in "Away in a Manger's" final line, "and fit us for Hea-ven to live[liv] with Him there." since the English word "live" can be either an adjective or a verb, but as a verb is pronounced with the short "i" while as an adjective [as in "a live broadcast"] is pronounced with a long "i", and is normally sung as an adjective, with the long "i" as rhyming with "strive").
 
Disadvantages: Far more work than even Workaround #2! Feijke Boomstra's "Merge BBshop Style" MyrScript (Notation / Lyrics) does attempt to automate this (among other things) with varying degrees of success. Also, sometimes causes hard-to-track-down glitches in display or printing or Virtual Singer pronunciation, since this is indeed a hack, not something the software was ever designed to do.
 
As you can see, all of the workarounds have problems. #2 has potential with the new version, as an unexpected side effect of Styled Text, but is still considerable work and thus prone to human error.
 
(Continued in next message.)
« Last Edit: Oct 23rd, 2006, 8:39pm by COMALite J » offline
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Re: Default Lyrics  
« Reply #6 on: Apr 26th, 2006, 12:18am »
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(Continued from previous message.)

 
My proposed method is simply that Lyrics only have to be entered in Measures where they differ from a designated "Lyrics Parent Staff." Where no Lyric exists for a syllable at a particular place, VS sings the Parent Staff Lyric there instead. This is recursive: if the Parent Staff Lyric is also blank at that point, use the Parent Staff of the Parent Staff, and so on.
 
In the case of our SATB music, we enter our main Lyrics only once, in the Alto Staff. The Soprano Staff has its Lyric Parent Staff set to be the Alto Staff, and so does the Tenor Staff. The Bass Staff has its Lyric Parent Staff set to be the Tenor Staff. The Lyrics are positioned so that, once Merged, the Soprano Lyrics are above the G Clef Staff, the Alto below it and roughly between the two, the Tenor above the F Clef Staff and visibly closer to it than to the G Clef Staff (and positioned so that it can never overlap either the Alto Clef [Master] Lyrics, nor any note nor symbol on and positioned above the F Clef Staff), and the Bass Lyrics are positioned below the F Clef Staff.
 
Advantages: shared lyrics only have to be entered once. No need for fancy hacks. Much less work, much less chance of human error. Can be included in Models / Templates such as SATB Choral Music or Barbershop by simply pre-setting the Parent Staff settings, making things much easier for beginners (and even non-beginners). And, despite the five Difficulty stars, it should actually be quite easy for the Guillions to implement.
 
I really don't understand the rationalle behind the Five-Star Difficulty rating here. After all, VS already does something very much like this, and has almost since the beginning: repeated Chorus lyrics for multi-Verse songs! We've always had the ability to enter the repeated Chorus lyrics for a multi-Verse song (again, most typical Hymns are examples here) only once, secure in the knowledge that VS would repeat them for each verse, even though they only appeared once, both on paper and in the actual stored Lyrics!
 
It's not like some whole new major feature would need to be written from scratch (like, say, Styled Text)! The principle and most of the code to make it work should be exactly the same as what allows the Multi-Verse Chorus repeated Lyrics to work. The only difference would be where VS looks for the source Lyric when encountering an empty Syllable! I can't even imagine this being two Stars worth of Difficulty, let alone five!
 
Implementation: one new Parameter would be added to each Staff With Lyrics, which would simply be a pointer to a single other Staff With Lyrics that would become that Staff's Lyrics Parent. It would appear as a drop-down menu in, say, the Staff Display Mode dialog. Only eligible Staves (those with Lyrics other than the current Staff itself) would appear in that menu, plus a "(none)" option which would be the default and would maintain backwards compatibility and current functionality.
 
In MyrScript's DOM, this would be: "Staff.LyricParent" which could either be an integer, in which case it represents the Index of the Parent Staff, or it could be a Staff Object, in which case it's stored as a pointer to the Parent Staff and in MyrScript returns the actual Parent Staff. If nil, then the drop-down menu is set to "(none)". Only that one parameter would need to be added.
 
When VS encounters an empty syllable in any Staff, it would determine the Syllable to sing as follows:
 
1. Is this a later Verse (or other Repeated section) in a multiple-Verse song, and is a syllable present in an earlier Verse at the same time point? If so, sing that Lyric syllable instead (in reverse order of repeats until the first is encountered). This is what VS currently does with such multi-Verse songs! It already has this ability!
 
2. Is the Lyric syllable still empty after Step 1? This would be the case if the song isn't multi-Verse, or if it is but no Lyric syllable appears there even the first time through. This is where this Feature Request comes in. If this is the case, and a Lyric Parent Staff is designated for this Staff, simply sing the Lyric syllable that appears there in the same time point (repeat, bar, beat). If the Lyric Parent Staff syllable at that time point is empty, first check its Lyric Parent Staff if any (and recurse until there is none), and then, if still empty, re-check the Lyrics Parent Staff chain but this time applying Rule 1 (multi-verse).
 
3. Is the Lyric syllable still empty after Steps 1 and 2? Then treat as VS normally does (sing Solfeggio or Scat or "La" lyrics, depending on VS command in effect, or hold previous non-empty lyric syllable sustained if any [but only if a melisma appears there], or "sing" silence at that point).
 
One new Staff Parameter, and a new potential source for substitute Lyrics for VS to check when a Lyric is missing, plus some minor "If-Then" logic for determining when to use what source. I really don't see what's so hard about this!
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Re: Default Lyrics  
« Reply #7 on: Jun 7th, 2006, 7:15pm »
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The idea sounds very intriguing, and would decrease the work of the end-user, however, since I write for both vocal and instrumentation, it would be nice to have a "select or highlight" feature so that only the voice staffs are affected.  Also, when using choral voices that don't sing the words to the songs, but use oohs or ahhs, I wouldn't won't those lines to be affected either, since I sometimes add words in between the oohs and ahhs.  I know this isn't a very complex description of what I am saying, but I hope you can understand my meaning.
 
Sincerely,
 
Cal Jennings
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COMALite J
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Re: Default Lyrics  
« Reply #8 on: Jun 8th, 2006, 5:54am »
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Only voice Staves would be affected regardless, since only they are set to "Staff With Lyrics." Instrumental Staves would not be affected in any way.
 
As for "Oohs" and "Aahs," I covered that already. See Step 3 in the second post, re: sustained syllables and melismas (underscores).
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2006, 5:59am by COMALite J » offline
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Re: Default Lyrics  
« Reply #9 on: Jul 4th, 2006, 1:46am »
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I use HA for Barbershop arrangements, so this proposal is exciting for me.  My current work around is to do two files, one with four separate staves for use with Virtual Singer, and one with merged staves and manually-entered text for printing.  Doing it all within one file would be great for me.
 
Keep the Whole World Singing,
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Re: Default Lyrics   ha922purpletriangle.png
« Reply #10 on: Jul 4th, 2006, 11:33am »
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Comalite, don't forget the purple triangle workaround !
 
In Page Mode, when displaying controls, the purple triangle can hide some line of lyrics.
 
Keep Control key down when clicking the triangle and changing one setting will apply this change only for the system you are on.
Not doing it will apply the change for all systems.
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Re: Default Lyrics   HA_VS_DW_DefaultLyricsDemo.gif
« Reply #11 on: Jul 4th, 2006, 10:42pm »
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That only works on a per-verse (repeats) level. We need this ability at the very least at the per-measure (bar) level, or, better yet, per note / syllable.
 
Also, merely hiding lyrics, while it would get the job done, still doesn't solve the problem of having to enter the same lyrics multiple times, and either having to copy-and-paste them (and manually adjust for differences such as two slurred eighth notes sung by one part over a sustained quarter note sung by another, both sharing a single lyric syllable), or manually type them in each time, with the corresponding increased probability of human error (typos).
 
We don't have to do this for repeated lyrics in the chorus part of a multi-verse song. Why should we have to for multiple voice parts in a multi-voice-part song?
 
The attached image shows an example of the effect I want. Notice how only one set of shared lyrics appears. Yet, we want all four parts to sing.
 
I had to jump through some serious hoops to get even this far (note that the Bass Lyrics is on a separate Staff of its own, with just the Lyrics showing and no Staff Lines or notes, and the only reason that worked was because in this particular song, the Bass part special lyric notes were all on whole-beat boundaries: had their been any eighth notes and/or dotted quarter notes and the like which caused a syllable to be on a non-beat boundary, that trick would not have worked), and they still don't work all that well (notice how the second notes of each measure don't line up well with the lyrics: this is because of Engraver Mode spacing, and since the lyrics aren't on the same Staff as the notes, they don't adjust properly).
 
Note also the faulty melismas showing on the Tenor Lyrics, such as at the beginning of Measure 9. I could not make those go away without wrecking the VS playback. They should not be there.
« Last Edit: Jul 4th, 2006, 10:46pm by COMALite J » offline

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Re: Default Lyrics  
« Reply #12 on: Sep 27th, 2006, 4:01pm »
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What Comalite J is asking for, is precisely the thing I am looking for.
I want to use HA/MA/VS for entering the music we sing with our 4-voices men choir and I am running into the same problems with the lyrics.
So, yes, I want this (please.....? )
If the suggestion of Comalite would be to complicated to implement, perhaps building in an option for making certain parts of the lyrics invisible (while other parts and all the graphics/texts etc of the staff remain visible) would be a great help.
« Last Edit: Oct 1st, 2006, 10:48am by GMK » offline
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Re: Default Lyrics  
« Reply #13 on: Oct 23rd, 2006, 8:06pm »
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I absolutely support the adding of this feature.  In fact, I posed the question on how to do this in the main VS forum and COMALite J pointed me here for more info.  Based on what I have read, I am going to use the [] method in the current version.  I am wondering how that will work when one needs to adjust pronunciation within a hidden lyric area.
 
Adding this feature would save a lot of time and would increase (by a lot) the enjoyment I get from using HA/VS.
 
 
-tim
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Re: Default Lyrics  
« Reply #14 on: Oct 27th, 2006, 3:11am »
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This is 99.9% of what I do with HA.  The Merge BBshop Style script is okay for printing, but it solidly goofs up the singing, mainly because if you modify the pronunciation of a word with SAMPA inside a hidden syllable, then it doesn't get modified.  There are also other ways that the pronunciation of hidden lyrics gets mangled due to that workaround.
 
So, this seems to be exactly what I'm trying to get the software to do.
 
Another way to manage it might be to think of an "invisible" attribute for lyric syllables.  It's harder to work with by the user, but it might be easier to write the code.
 
All that COMA Lite J says is correct, but I'm used to cutting and pasting the lyrics, and putting in the spaces to cover the melismas for the parts where the rhythm is different.  That's not the main problem for me.  It's that I cannot hide the lyrics that are the same, and at the same time show the lyrics that are different.  Give me any technique that does that, without ruining the singing and I'm a happy user!  
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