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   Author  Topic: Graphical export in LaTeX format  (Read 31801 times)
Question: Do you support the proposal below?

Yes     29 (87.8%)
No     4 (12.1%)

Total votes: 33

Please read this before voting

     

marce
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #105 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 5:18pm »
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Oh, i missed that. Will he upload the .myr file?
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #106 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 5:43pm »
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Look at the header of message #98, you can download the attached file here.
 
Best regards
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marce
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #107 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 5:53pm »
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Downloaded!
 
Well, mr Bubu, good work! The output is excellent, isnt?
Im sorry that cant understand completely french, nice to know how much work or steps he make to arrive to this graphic.
I have been working, without knowing what bubu made, and found that the automaticall engraving is most times ok, but hand tweaking is required, just a little, to emulate the score.
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Marcelo Colina
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #108 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 9:29pm »
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on Jan 2nd, 2006, 5:53pm, marce wrote:

Im sorry that cant understand completely french, nice to know how much work or steps he make to arrive to this graphic.

Sorry about writing in French only. I was actually answering Henri's post. I only know a little English and unfortunately no Spanish at all...  
In my last post, I only pointed out that I got stuck with some ornaments that do not appear in HA (like trills + modants) and apoggiaturas were very hard to fit in the existing bars. Apart from typing in the symbols, I also tried to keep the overall page layout (number of bars per line, only one A4 page) given in the LilyPond printout. I also made visible (but in smaller size) some rests on the second staff so as to stick to the original engraved score sent by Henri in his second post (the jpg file). I had to reset their offset so that the rests didn't clash with the notes of the other merged staves (I used 2+3 merged staves). By the way, I used a script I had written with Myrscript to point out some of the problems in merged staves and came to the conclusion that it needed a lot of improving.
As you said, the score needs some tweaking. But Didier (or Olivier, I never remember who is who) said that the main goal is to get a "raw" file, without any tweaking, so as to find out what points need improving in HA's engraving engine.
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #109 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 10:42pm »
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This was written before bubu42 had sent the above reply
Well bubu42, you did a good job.
Reading the file information about aria_goldberg1.myr I find that it was spent 3 hours and 33 minutes in that document.
Still his job isn't finished. I detected about 23 collisions: specially grace notes and sharps colliding with noteheads.
On the other hand, I only found 3 collisions in the lilypond generated pdf, which can be solvable too, with some tweaking.
Now, how much time will bubu42 spend in removing the collisions for a better output? He might have even to stretch the score and use an extra system, which is perfectly fine to me.
Well, Henri claims to have spent only two hours and the score needs much less adjustments... That's the power of Lilypond.
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format   Aria_in_Finale_vs_Aria_in_Lilypond.pdf
« Reply #110 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 10:43pm »
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Puisqu'on en est à faire des tests, j'ai rentré la partition de Bach dans Finale 2006a en 1h10 et vous verrez le résultat dans le pdf joint
« Last Edit: Jan 2nd, 2006, 11:23pm by NICOU59 » offline
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #111 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 11:04pm »
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on Jan 2nd, 2006, 10:42pm, edubrazil wrote:

Reading the file information about aria_goldberg1.myr I find that it was spent 3 hours and 33 minutes in that document.

Sorry for giving the initial explanation in French only... True, the counter does show more than 3 1/2 hours, but this is what happened. I spent a little less than 2 hours to type in the symbols and do some tweaking on the notes collisions (I left aside the grace notes). Then I decided to tamper the engraving parameters, change the margins, and so on. That was really time consuming but not very good. I had to undo many things and I should have saved the original file straight away and the timer would have shown only two hours. Quote:

Still his job isn't finished.

You are totally right. Quote:

I detected about 23 collisions: specially grace notes and sharps colliding with noteheads.
On the other hand, I only found 3 collisions in the lilypond generated pdf, which can be solvable too, with some tweaking.
Now, how much time will bubu42 spend in removing the collisions for a better output?

Not only the job is not finished, but it probably requires a lot of time to get it right. Quote:

He might have even to stretch the score and use an extra system, which is perfectly fine to me.

I guess that all those collisions can be quickly avoided provided we allow HA to stretch the score, but the aim was to keep it to one page and 6 groups. Quote:

Well, Henri claims to have spent only two hours and the score needs much less adjustments... That's the power of Lilypond.

The aim was not -to my mind- to compete but try to find out what precise points could be improved and how.
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #112 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 11:11pm »
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on Jan 2nd, 2006, 10:43pm, NICOU59 wrote:
Puisqu'on en est à faire des tests, j'ai rentré la partition de Bach dans Finale 2006a en 1h10 et vous verrez le résultat dans le pdf joint;
Avec le son de clavecin de GPO, je vous laisse imaginer le résultat qui est trop lourd pour être posté ici : fabuleux.

C'est effectivement très bien ! Mais nous sortons un peu du sujet.  
Au passage, je suis sûr qu'on peut encore diminuer le temps de rédaction en passant par un scanner et un logiciel de reconnaissance.  
Mais là n'est pas le problème.
Le but du jeu est de voir comment améliorer HA sur des points précis. Pour le moment, je retiendrais 2 points principaux :
- le graphisme de certains ornements manquants
- la gestion des apoggiatures
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #113 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 11:13pm »
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on Nov 8th, 2005, 8:07am, Olivier Guillion wrote:
Description:
Graphical export in LaTeX format, Lilypond compatible.
 
Difficulty:

 
Product(s):

Et voilà comment avec une simple proposition on se retrouve avec un fil de plus de cent messages !
Ariane, ma soeur, ne vois-tu rien venir ?  
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #114 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 11:15pm »
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on Jan 2nd, 2006, 10:43pm, NICOU59 wrote:
Puisqu'on en est à faire des tests, j'ai rentré la partition de Bach dans Finale 2006a en 1h10 et vous verrez le résultat dans le pdf joint.

Bienheureux possesseurs d'une licence Finale, Ecore ou Sibelius !
Vous avez été obligés (en principe) de dépenser des centaines d'euros pour avoir cette qualité. Vous la méritez bien.
Mais vous avez beau jeu de critiquer des solutions qui pourraient intéresser ceux qui ne sont pas prêts à faire une telle dépense (je suis de ceux là).
Finale & consorts ne jouent pas dans la même cour qu'Harmony et Lilypond.
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #115 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 11:22pm »
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Je ne suis pas d'accord avec toi Henry, ,pour moi Harmony est largement à la hauteur voi rmem est supérieur à ses ainés ne serait ce que par l'esprit qui l'anime et ce forum. Si je présente cela c'est parceque j'aime harmony et que je souhaite qu'il progresse encore.
Mon initiative était peut-être maladroite et je m'en excuse mais je voulais me faire et vous donner un ordre d'idée quand aux résultats que l'on pouvait obtenir avec les "grands fréres".
Ce qu'il manque à Harmony, ce sont ces régles de mise en page que nous recherchons ardemment et une automatisation de celles-ci.
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #116 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 11:32pm »
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A vue de nez, après avoir généré un PDF avec HA, pour comparer sur un même format de document :
 
- Le document HA est assez beau, les épaisseurs respectives des traits sont élégantes, mais il y a beaucoup trop de collisions - j'en trouve 32. C'est principalement le placement des appoggiatures et des altérations qui est en cause. Noter cependant qu'il y a certainement eu un travail manuel de séparation des voix par bubu, en jouant notamment sur les directions de tiges.
 
- Le PDF généré par Finale est, soyons franc, assez moche, principalement à cause des lignes trop épaisses. Mais cela est sans doute réglable ? D'autre part les lignes qui joignent les croches et doubles croches sont trop horizontales. Apparemment aucune collision.
 
- Le PDF généré par LilyPond donne une assez bonne impression d'ensemble, encore que je préfère HA. Juste une micro-collision.
 
Bref, il me semble qu'il faudrait en premier éviter les collisions. Est-ce que le script de mise en forme de partition avait été appliqué sur la version HA ?
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #117 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 11:33pm »
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on Jan 2nd, 2006, 11:22pm, NICOU59 wrote:
Je ne suis pas d'accord avec toi Henry, ,pour moi Harmony est largement à la hauteur voi rmem est supérieur à ses ainés ne serait ce que par l'esprit qui l'anime et ce forum. Si je présente cela c'est parceque j'aime harmony et que je souhaite qu'il progresse encore.
Mon initiative était peut-être maladroite et je m'en excuse mais je voulais me faire et vous donner un ordre d'idée quand aux résultats que l'on pouvait obtenir avec les "grands fréres".
Ce qu'il manque à Harmony, ce sont ces régles de mise en page que nous recherchons ardemment et une automatisation de celles-ci.

Tu as raison, j'ai un peu dévié en prenant un ton polémique, je m'excuse à mon tour.
 
Mais je constate aussi (et ça m'a un peu énervé) que ceux qui ne veulent pas entendre parler de Lilypond
1) ne l'ont jamais essayé
2) ont accès le plus souvent un autre éditeur de partitions plus puissant.
 
Moi aussi je suis pour l'amélioration d'Harmony avant tout. C'est bien pour ça que je suis sur ce forum. Et j'y ai aussi pas mal travaillé ces dernières années comme vous, les frères Guillion peuvent en témoigner. En tout cas le test proposé par Olivier est très intéressant ; j'espère qu'il permettra de faire progresser Harmony sur ce point (l'impression) qui à mon avis l'handicape toujours un peu.
 
Quant au fichier Finale, je ne doutais pas qu'il soit bon, mais c'est finalement bien que tu nous le démontres.
Sans rancune
« Last Edit: Jan 2nd, 2006, 11:38pm by Henri » offline
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #118 on: Jan 3rd, 2006, 1:15am »
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on Jan 2nd, 2006, 10:42pm, edubrazil wrote:
Well, Henri claims to have spent only two hours and the score needs much less adjustments... That's the power of Lilypond.

 
Yes, but that power has a "price": you need to be able to or willing to learn to type codes. I don't know how to and I sure don't want to learn it either. As I mentioned elsewhere in French, in 1985 I bought a Mac that was 3-4 times costlier than a PC that only ran by command lines so I wouldn't have to learn or type command lines. I sure don't want to go 20 years back and I'm still ready to pay to avoid command lines of whatever type. The fact that it only took Henri 2 hours is only due to the fact that he already knows how to type code. I am for any kind of solution that will improve print quality in HA if it is not done through command lines of whatever kind at any given point in time.
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Re: Graphical export in LaTeX format  
« Reply #119 on: Jan 3rd, 2006, 2:10am »
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on Jan 3rd, 2006, 1:15am, Laurier wrote:

 
Yes, but that power has a "price": you need to be able to or willing to learn to type codes. I don't know how to and I sure don't want to learn it either. As I mentioned elsewhere in French, in 1985 I bought a Mac that was 3-4 times costlier than a PC that only ran by command lines so I wouldn't have to learn or type command lines. I sure don't want to go 20 years back and I'm still ready to pay to avoid command lines of whatever type. The fact that it only took Henri 2 hours is only due to the fact that he already knows how to type code. I am for any kind of solution that will improve print quality in HA if it is not done through command lines of whatever kind at any given point in time.

 
I found reasonable your post Laurier.  
Again, i dont believe that a "War" Lilypond&Harmony is the point. But the comparisons are valids to get ideas in what can be enhanced the Harmony graphic output.
 
In the time i spent trying to emulate the score that Henri provided, i see that, in my opinion, most of tasks that i make by hand, can easily programmed via myrscript, and then, compile the scripst in some kind of "wizard"...
 
Well, the "easily programmed" said for someone that is not a programmer, sorry if i consider to easy that job.
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