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May 21st, 2018, 9:22am 
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deejey
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Tuplets   44Measure.jpg
« on: Feb 8th, 2018, 12:11pm »
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HA 980d
I'm trying to notate the measure (attached) from sheet music in 4/4 time. Those with a better grasp of music theory than mine will be able to say whether or not this is possible/correct.  
All I can say is that trying to input this does not go as I expected.  
I input the rest and semi-quaver, then select a 6/1 tuplet and enter the notes/rest as shown. All is fine until I deselect the tuplet mode and add any further note. HA adds the new note to the 6/1 tuplet as if it is incomplete. Is the music wrong or HA, or me?
Then, assuming that is fixed, we come to the last tuplet labelled 6. This one has four notes    
Unfortunately I came to music very late and I'm now becoming aware of what I missed ! Knowledgeable advice would be appreciated.
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Re: Tuplets   Strange-score.myr
« Reply #1 on: Feb 8th, 2018, 1:03pm »
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Désolé de ne pas répondre en anglais, mais je maitrise mal cette partie du vocabulaire
Si vous faites l'analyse de cette mesure vous trouvez
  • 1er temps: un demi soupir pointé + une double croche
  • 2ème temps: l'équivalent de 6 doubles croches en triolet, à savoir
    • 1 croche = 2 doubles croches
    • 1 double croche
    • 1 quart de soupir = 1 double croche
    • 2 triples croches = 1 double croche
    • 1 double croche

  • 3ème temps:
    • 1 croche + une double croche en triolet
    • une croche liée à la double croche, mais QUI N'est PAS en triolet

  • 4ème temps: l'équivalent de 6 doubles croches en sextolet

Je suppose que le problème vient de ce que la croche liée n'est pas en triolet
 
Vous avez la partition en attachement
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deejey
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Re: Tuplets  
« Reply #2 on: Feb 9th, 2018, 9:35am »
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Merci bien JP.  
Désolé de ne pas répondre en français, mais je maitrise mal cette partie du vocabulaire!
 
Ma capacité à tuplets est limitée par mes connaissances limitées. Analysant votre attachement, je peux voir que le succès dépendait du choix des paramètres corrects pour le tuplets. Je ne peux pas imaginer comment je saurais qui choisir. L'exemple ne me donne aucune idée, mais je vais faire quelques recherches!
 
Thankyou. My ability with tuplets is constrained by my limited knowledge. Analyzing your attachment, I can see that success was dependent on choosing the correct parameters for the tuplets. I can't imagine how I would know which to choose. The example gives me no clue but I will do some research!
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Re: Tuplets  
« Reply #3 on: Feb 9th, 2018, 10:45am »
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on Feb 9th, 2018, 9:35am, deejey wrote:
Analyzing your attachment, I can see that success was dependent on choosing the correct parameters for the tuplets. I can't imagine how I would know which to choose. The example gives me no clue but I will do some research!

Well! it's (relatively) simple:
When you use tuplets, you mean that the duration of each note or rest is a fraction of it's usual duration.
 
So "a tuplet is a fraction", a mathematical concept that is probably familiar to you.
 
What is often confusing is that the notation of tuplets is "3", "6", "5", "2", etc., which does not look like fractions.
In fact, "3" stands for "3:2", "6" stands for "6:4", "5" for "5:4", "2" for "2:3".
HA allows to display the full notation it that can help.
 
The second confusing point is that the duration of notes and rests is the INVERSE FRACTION: i.e. if you see "6" over a note, that means that the complete fraction is "6:4" and the duration of the note is "'4:6" of it's normal duration.
 
Notice that "6" and "3" mean exactly the same thing, as 4:6 = 2:3
The reason for the different notation is just a matter of saying "6 sixteenths in a beat" or "3 eightths in a beat".
 
In that score, the confusion comes from the 3rd beat, which contains:
a eightth + a sixteenth in a triplet, i.e. the equivalent of a eightth
a eightth in "normal duration"
The way it is written is correct, but it's confusing at first glance.
 
Hope that helps
 
« Last Edit: Feb 9th, 2018, 10:52am by JP » offline
deejey
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Re: Tuplets   TupletsComplex.jpg
« Reply #4 on: Feb 9th, 2018, 10:56am »
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JP
J'ai pu recréer votre exemple lorsque j'ai choisi les paramètres de tuplet corrects comme indiqué avec l'affichage de tuplet complet !
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Re: Tuplets  
« Reply #5 on: Feb 9th, 2018, 11:00am »
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I think that the standard notation for tuplets is bad...  
 
Let's explain it with triplets:  
 
In a standard 4:4 piece,  there can be triplet eights or quarters. They are marked with a little "3".  
 
Now, everybody sees that there a 3 notes. Nothing says what they must really represent.  
If the notation rule was to put a "2" there instead, it would be clear that the bracketed group of 3 notes should have a total length of two of them.  
 
Of course, with triplets we are used to that. With duplets I have seen ambiguous cases. And with higher values it can be a nightmerry.  
 
Of course, we cannot change the world, nor the past... Even a change in standard shouldn't create an ambiguity between a new and an old rule.  
 
But the agreed notation has an alternative, which is to indicate tuplets by two figures. I strongly recomment using that in cases which are more complex than just a triplet.    
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Re: Tuplets  
« Reply #6 on: Feb 9th, 2018, 12:25pm »
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Bien sûr André, mais l'expérience prouve que quand on essaie de changer les standards on crée encore plus de confusion.
 
La façon de noter de la musique par écrit telle que nous la connaissons aujourd'hui correspond à un monde musical fortement tonal, avec peu de modulations, des rythmes standard (du reste pas toujours notés tant ils étaient "évidents). Tout cela a fortement changé au cours des deux derniers siècles, et la notation devient inadaptée à ce qu'on veut noter.
 
Il est clair que cette partition note quelque chose que l'on n'aurait même pas imaginé il y a un siècle.
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deejey
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Re: Tuplets  
« Reply #7 on: Feb 9th, 2018, 12:36pm »
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JP / André
L'exemple/la mesure que j'ai mentionné dans mon message original est un accompagnement inutilement piano main droite à un arrangement SATB pour SkyFall. Je n'avais besoin que d'un rythme de fond pour aider les collègues de choral, mais je suis incapable de le simplifier. Avec votre aide, je suis resté fidèle à l'original.
 
Please excuse the Bing translation if it is not ideal.
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Re: Tuplets  
« Reply #8 on: Feb 9th, 2018, 1:11pm »
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on Feb 9th, 2018, 12:36pm, deejey wrote:
JP / André
L'exemple/la mesure que j'ai mentionné dans mon message original est un accompagnement inutilement piano main droite à un arrangement SATB pour SkyFall. Je n'avais besoin que d'un rythme de fond pour aider les collègues de choral, mais je suis incapable de le simplifier. Avec votre aide, je suis resté fidèle à l'original.
 
Please excuse the Bing translation if it is not ideal.

Je plains surtout le pianiste qui va jouer ça!
Dans ce style de musique (comme dans la musique baroque du reste) on n'écrit pas des rythmes aussi difficiles à lire, on écrit des choses plus simples, et l'interprète joue ça comme il l'entend, en faisant des notes inégales, selon son envie du moment.
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Re: Tuplets   Strange-score-1.png
« Reply #9 on: Feb 9th, 2018, 2:15pm »
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Voici ce que j'aurais écrit
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