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Topic: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores... (Read 2274 times) |
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Olivier Guillion
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #15 on: Jan 8th, 2005, 9:08am » |
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on Jan 7th, 2005, 8:27pm, taino wrote:| Why this software can not take the whole system as one big staf of 11 lines and put each note where it is sopuse to be as well as one play the midi keyboard? |
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Is it really what you expect? Then you can already do this !
-Input your MIDI score
-Split it according to C4
-Move and resize the two staves so that they have the C4 ledger line in common (let only one line between the two staves).
Regards,
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Olivier Guillion
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Jean-Armand Moroni
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #16 on: Jan 8th, 2005, 11:17pm » |
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Just to clarify a little. Two rules for piano scores have been more or less considered previously in this thread:
1) The upper staff contains right hand notes and the lower staff contains left hand notes.
2) The upper staff contains notes above the middle C, and the lower staff contains notes below it.
In fact in real scores, even in some easy ones, neither of these rules is strictly applied: in the same score you'll find a combination of both. However rule 1 seems to be more often followed than rule 2: the "11 lines staff" concept is rarely seen.
When rule 2 is applied, the notes that are in contradiction with rule 1 (i.e. on upper staff and played with left hand, or the contrary) are usually distinguished from the notes on the same staff that are played with the other hand, by having stems on the opposite direction (and often these stems are linked to notes on the other staff). However, I have found a few exceptions in some scores from Bach: stem direction and links are used to distinguish parts (especially in fugues), not to state which hand should play the notes.
In any case, the only practical way to write, with MA/HA, a complex polyphonic piece such as a 4 parts fugue, is to use merged staves, i.e. to write on 4 staves, not on 2.
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bubu42
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #17 on: Jan 8th, 2005, 11:59pm » |
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on Jan 8th, 2005, 11:17pm, Jean-Armand wrote:
1) The upper staff contains right hand notes and the lower staff contains left hand notes.
2) The upper staff contains notes above the middle C, and the lower staff contains notes below it.
In fact in real scores, even in some easy ones, neither of these rules is strictly applied: in the same score you'll find a combination of both. However rule 1 seems to be more often followed than rule 2: the "11 lines staff" concept is rarely seen.
In any case, the only practical way to write, with MA/HA, a complex polyphonic piece such as a 4 parts fugue, is to use merged staves, i.e. to write on 4 staves, not on 2. |
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Let's add that in many engraver's scores, you can also find treble notes that are shifted to the other staff instead of typing them two lines under the treble staff. Generally, their stems are linked. HA can do this, of course. The use of merged staves is necessary on the "left hand" part.
Here is an example from Bach's canon in the Art of Fugue.
Voice 1 goes down to the second staff, then up to the first one with one note on the second staff and back to the second staff again.
Jean-Pierre
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Jean-Armand Moroni
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #18 on: Jan 9th, 2005, 1:35am » |
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Well, that is an example of "rule 2" being applied, not a new case. Or did I miss something ? 
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| « Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2005, 1:37am by Jean-Armand Moroni » |
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kHz_Robert
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #19 on: Jan 9th, 2005, 5:38am » |
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on Jan 7th, 2005, 11:07pm, Laurier wrote:
... about when a hand cross over the other one to play a few notes. |
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Jean-Armand It looks like what Laurier mentioned. Interesting.
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bubu42
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #20 on: Jan 9th, 2005, 10:53am » |
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on Jan 9th, 2005, 1:35am, Jean-Armand wrote:| Well, that is an example of "rule 2" being applied, not a new case. Or did I miss something ? |
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Well, it is, but it's a little more complicated : look at the last note in the central bar : the head is on the lower staff but the rest of the group is on the first one. In the bar on the right, the first voice starts on the second staff and will be continued on the first one (only a rest is visible). I'm simply talking of a mixture of rules inside a single bar.
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Jean-Armand Moroni
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #21 on: Jan 9th, 2005, 9:52pm » |
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Quote:| I'm simply talking of a mixture of rules inside a single bar. |
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OK. When beginning this discussion I had the feeling that some medium complexity algorithm could be devised to make things a little better than splitting at middle C, but now that we have quoted quite a few kinds of exceptions, I believe it is a very hard problem. Especially when considering that, when processing MIDI input from a keyboard, notes are not struck exactly when they should, and they may last more or less than their duration if being played legato or staccato.
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bubu42
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #22 on: Jan 9th, 2005, 9:59pm » |
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on Jan 9th, 2005, 9:52pm, Jean-Armand wrote:
OK. When beginning this discussion I had the feeling that some medium complexity algorithm could be devised to make things a little better than splitting at middle C, but now that we have quoted quite a few kinds of exceptions, I believe it is a very hard problem. |
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Honestly, splitting at middle C is a very good option, statistically speaking. Anyway, it's quite easy to tamper a few notes along the score from one staff to the other. HA has a great built-in feature : you can add a note in the 23rd bar without having to fill in the 22 previous bars with silences. That's not the case for other music software...
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Laurier
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #23 on: Jan 9th, 2005, 10:26pm » |
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on Jan 9th, 2005, 9:52pm, Jean-Armand wrote:| When beginning this discussion I had the feeling that some medium complexity algorithm could be devised to make things a little better than splitting at middle C, but now that we have quoted quite a few kinds of exceptions, I believe it is a very hard problem. |
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I believe that this is exactly why Sibelius doesn't do so good a job at "guessing" where the notes should go in the automatic mode and why Sibelius doesn't brag at all about this feature.
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Laurier NAPPERT (Voyez mon nouveau site ci-dessous)
http://web.mac.com/lauriernappert/
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COMALite J
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #24 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 7:50pm » |
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The only way that this can be done absolutely reliably and in real-time is with hardware.
Basically, the pianist / keyboardist would need special gloves, combined some sort of sensor in the keyboard that allows it to sense which finger (perhaps by a tiny RFID chip sewn into each fingertip of the glove) is pressing which key at which time.
There is no other way that it can be done totally automatically, totally reliably, and in real-time.
So, Taino, I guess this will not only keep you away from this software, but from all current software, since it simply cannot be done at the current time by anything. Nobody has actually invented such a set of gloves and keyboard combination that I know of.
And, as has been shown here, even that wouldn't be perfect since there are exceptions to the rules of which staff notes go on, even when you know which hand and which finger is playing which notes.
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marce
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #25 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 7:59pm » |
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on Jan 10th, 2005, 7:50pm, COMALite J wrote:The only way that this can be done absolutely reliably and in real-time is with hardware.
Basically, the pianist / keyboardist would need special gloves, combined some sort of sensor in the keyboard that allows it to sense which finger (perhaps by a tiny RFID chip sewn into each fingertip of the glove) is pressing which key at which time.
There is no other way that it can be done totally automatically, totally reliably, and in real-time.
So, Taino, I guess this will not only keep you away from this software, but from all current software, since it simply cannot be done at the current time by anything. Nobody has actually invented such a set of gloves and keyboard combination that I know of.
And, as has been shown here, even that wouldn't be perfect since there are exceptions to the rules of which staff notes go on, even when you know which hand and which finger is playing which notes. |
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Comalite, i believe that is not the "only way" in hardware. How i have said, using two keyboards on diffrent channels, you can record each hand to diffrent staffs. You need play each hand on a diffrent keyboard, of course  . Is a not rare practice.
The idea you mention Coma, is good if you want that the finger number is associated to the notes.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2005, 8:12pm by marce » |
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Marcelo Colina
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COMALite J
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #26 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 8:17pm » |
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Ack! I did read your post, Marce, but forgot to specify in mine that I was talking about with a single keyboard.
Organists and band keyboardists are used to playing on two separate keyboards at the same time, but pianists are not. In particular, with hand crossover pieces as described earlier, this would so drastically affect the "feel" of the performance that the pianist would likely make serious mistakes when trying to play the music into the computer using two keyboards instead of one as s/he is used to.
Then there are the logistics: true concert pianists will settle for nothing less than 88-note grand piano mechanism keyboards (e. g. the Yamaha GrandTouch line), or a real honest-to-goodness grand piano with MIDI sensors added underneath the keyboard (e. g. Yamaha Silent Series or Disclavier). Mere "weighted keyboards" won't suffice, and unweighted "organ feel" keyboards are right out. Unfortuantely, such keyboards are, of necessity, quite bulky. Stacking two such that one person can play both simultaneously would be very tricky indeed, if not impossible. The spacing between them would be much greater than the spacing between adjacent manuals on, say, a church organ.
Another arrangement would be to have two grand pianos with MIDI sensors arranged so that they roughly face each other, with the pianist in the middle, so that his right hand plays the right piano and his left hand plays the left piano but he's facing neither (he is instead facing a point between the two pianos), and his arms are stretched out to his sides instead of in front of him. This would be even less natural, and there is also the logistics of where to put the sheet music in such a situation. A page-turner would be mandatory, as there would be no way that the pianist could move his arm all the way from the keyboard to the side to the sheet music in front of him and back in time without messing up the MIDI recording (even a fraction of a second discrepancy is all that it would take). This is even further exacerbated by the fact that the right piano would have the keys that the pianist would most need to play on it with the right hand further to the right (treble), and the left piano would likewise have the keys that the pianist would most need to play on it with the left hand further to the left (bass).
The gloves solution solves most of those problems, but adds its own alteration of the natural feel of playing (having a layer, however thin, between the fingertips and the keys, not to mention the increased stiffness of the fingers no matter how flexible and thin the glove material is) that can mess up the highly-trained "muscle memory" of a pianist.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2005, 8:19pm by COMALite J » |
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marce
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #27 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 9:30pm » |
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Nice post Coma. Is true that the "feeling" is not the same, if you are playing a "high-end" music piece, with difficult passages, it will affect it much more. But for the every day work and sequencing it can be ok.
And you knows, with practice you can custom yourself to most of things.
Have you heard abuot sameone using something like the "gloves" you talk, or is only an idea (by the way, a good one)?
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COMALite J
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #28 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 10:22pm » |
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on Jan 10th, 2005, 9:30pm, marce wrote:| Have you heard abuot sameone using something like the "gloves" you talk, or is only an idea (by the way, a good one)? |
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Thanks! Only an idea, at present, and my own. If anyone here who's mechanically inclined wants to run with it and patent an invention based on it, feel free. I only ask for a free unit of the invention once it's finished. :-)
And yes, I did realize that it also would enable automatic fingering digits notation. I figured, why not solve the next problem while were at it, before anyone even asks for it? <grin>
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| « Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2005, 10:25pm by COMALite J » |
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marce
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Re: Hi! question about Piano Midi and scores...
« Reply #29 on: Jan 11th, 2005, 12:08am » |
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Quote:| And yes, I did realize that it also would enable automatic fingering digits notation. I figured, why not solve the next problem while were at it, before anyone even asks for it? |
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If patenting that idea, i want also a free unit of this machine  (or you think it before? I now understand why we are not richmens: brilliant but sluggish (and humble, isnt?)
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| « Last Edit: Jan 11th, 2005, 12:11am by marce » |
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