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   Author  Topic: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  (Read 10048 times)
Erling
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #15 on: Jun 21st, 2002, 4:29pm »
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OK !
 
I stand Corrected. But I still don't hear it. (and the Gibson sample:...NO that is NOT good, but i really don't want an argument about that)   I Have another idea though:
 
When you publish tests on the demo page could you make a guitar demo using all strings ? (just for the deaf ones like me! )
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Sylvain Machefert
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #16 on: Jun 21st, 2002, 4:32pm »
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Can you post examples of Gibson with effects ? Distortion, Overdrive ...?
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Erling
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #17 on: Jun 21st, 2002, 4:38pm »
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Now i think I know what's wrong with the Gibson Sample ...
 
It's just to "Clinical". When you listen closely there is no vibrato ..no nothing ...except the sound itself.
 
And : The slide in the demo is just plain awful. (no offense !)
 
Keep it up though. It's still a lot better than the SEBase anyway.
 
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Olivier Guillion
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #18 on: Jun 21st, 2002, 4:39pm »
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on Jun 21st, 2002, 4:29pm, Erling wrote:
OK !
 
I stand Corrected. But I still don't hear it. (and the Gibson sample:...NO that is NOT good, but i really don't want an argument about that)  

 
The aim of this forum is to discuss. It is not because I say I do not agree with you that you have to give up immediately. I can be wrong, and my main wish is to be convinced to your opinion.
 
Quote:
I Have another idea though:
 
When you publish tests on the demo page could you make a guitar demo using all strings ? (just for the deaf ones like me! )

 
You can send me any file you consider to be a good demo for an instrument. The pattern must be less than 10/11 sec. long.
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Olivier Guillion
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #19 on: Jun 21st, 2002, 5:43pm »
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on Jun 21st, 2002, 4:38pm, Erling wrote:
Now i think I know what's wrong with the Gibson Sample ...
 
It's just to "Clinical". When you listen closely there is no vibrato ..no nothing ...except the sound itself.
 
And : The slide in the demo is just plain awful. (no offense !)
 
Keep it up though. It's still a lot better than the SEBase anyway.
 

 
 
Hi,
 
Just a little addendum to the Olivier's answer.
 
When you listen to Gibson like mine (Gibson SG Model 1967) on a CD, played by a guitarist, you don't ear   only the Gibson sound.
 
You ear the sound processed by various effect, vibrato, distorsion, larsen, etc...
 
Here is the chain :
 
String Sound=>  Effects created by the guitarist finger (vibrato, slide) => Guitar internal adjustement => external effects => amplification => loud speakers (which can saturate)
 
In the Sound base the sound must be as pure as possible because when you will use this instrument in your score, you will be able to apply all effects processor available in Harmony/Melody.
 
Best regards
 
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #20 on: Jun 22nd, 2002, 2:17pm »
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Two new instruments have been added to the Gold Sound Database sample page at  
 
http://www.myriad-online.com/goldsb/samples.htm

 
- Recorder (Alto)  
- Chromatic harmonica.
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Olivier Guillion
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Erling
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #21 on: Jun 24th, 2002, 9:02am »
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Quote:
In the Sound base the sound must be as pure as possible because when you will use this instrument in your score, you will be able to apply all effects processor available in Harmony/melody.  

 
Right, but what I talked about has nothing to do with that. I agree that the sample must be "clean". But what really makes a guitar-sound is the way a guitarplayer "attacks" the string. (A bad guitarplayer can make any Concert-guitar sound like trash.) Therefore: the sound of the fretboard, the sound of the nail/plectrum hitting the string and the sound of the (modest) vibrato generated by the guitarplayers left hand is adding quality to the sound. If these parameters is missing in the soundbase, you'll end up with a less natural guitar-sound, especially when playing slower notes.  
 
You can clearly hear the difference when listening to the other instrument samples. All harmonica sounds are just about perfect. On this instrument the player does not "shape" the sound very much by himself.
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Laurier
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #22 on: Jun 24th, 2002, 1:47pm »
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Quote:
A bad guitarplayer can make any Concert-guitar sound like trash. Therefore: the sound of the fretboard, the sound of the nail/plectrum hitting the string and the sound generated by the guitarplayers left hand is adding quality to the sound.

 
Well Erling, with all due respect, I don't want to hurt you or anyone here, but I do have to disagree on most of what is said here. I started to learn classical guitar some 25 years ago. At the time, Logoya, Segovia and others like them were the kings of CG. At that time too, these noises (except vibrato) were considered "unavoidable" and up to a certain degree, a "must". I had to stop CG training for many reasons.
 
I came back to it a little more than a year ago and found the CG world completely changed, so much so that I had to re-learn to play guitar. Indeed, new stars, new techniques are in place and fret noises are not welcomed anymore. We now know how to play without almost any noises coming out of the left hand. Some pieces I learned to play with those unavoidable noises way back then I now can play them witout noises. I could go on some lenghty explanations, but I don't think this is the place and wouldn't serve any purpose.
 
Just wanted to let you know that I do agree that a very good guitar can sound real bad when played bad, and the left hand noises are considered playing bad nowadays by good CG players (one of which I'm not BTW).
 
The same could be said about the flute or sax for instance: the sound of holes being opened or closed may be more "human", but this is what caraterizes a bad instrument. Pro instruments are silent working by themselves and good conductors will never allow anyone to make unwanted noises like fingers hitting the flute, oboe, trumpet or whatever instrument.
 
As for vibrato and other effects, I don't think they should be included in the sound base itself since they are not applied to each and every note, but applied to individual note with the software by the person who writes the score. This is why IMHO, the sound sould be as straight as possible with no effects of whatever kind, it must be left to each user to apply or not this kind of stuff. For this reason I think the Gibson sound is outstanding: it is pure, real, clean and I can do anything to it because of that.
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #23 on: Jun 24th, 2002, 2:07pm »
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Quote:
As for vibrato and other effects, I don't think they should be included in the sound base itself since they are not applied to each and every note, but applied to individual note with the software by the person who writes the score.

 
Laurier, what you said isn't wrong but I want to add that you can apply vibrato and/or tremolo for all one instrument.
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Erling
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #24 on: Jun 24th, 2002, 2:58pm »
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Well Laurier. I think you are missing my point just a little bit.
 
It's true that Fretboard noise in real concert play is not considered as something positive nowadays. And I for sure also don't think noise is a "virtue".  
(After all :I myself have spend some 30 years trying to avoid noise and "bad manners", being a trained concert-guitarist from The Royal Danish academy of Music)
 
But when we discuss the GOLD Project I think it's another matter. I am concerned that we get the most "realistic" sound. That is : a sound that best emulates that a real person is playing. Offcourse this should be achieved in a very subtle way, so not to disturb the musical experience.
 
In other words : do you prefer 100% perfect samples or 100% Authencity ?. Dealing with software Like Harmony/Melody we will have to make the best compromise. And IMHO, a 100% clean/Perfect sample may not be good enough in that respect.
 
If you listen to the RAW demo of Didiers Gibson, I must say that this is just NOT a guitar playing in my opinion. (No offense )
 
Regards from Erling
 
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #25 on: Jun 24th, 2002, 4:00pm »
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Quote:
do you prefer 100% perfect samples or 100% Authencity ?

For me the answer is : both of them
... and we will have the choice to use a very perfect sound or an authentic sound
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #26 on: Jun 24th, 2002, 4:17pm »
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OK. Let's be more clear about this topic.
 
About effects
 
Effects like Vibrato MUST NOT be included in the Guitar sound itself. Maybe some instruments cannot be played without vibrato, but it is not the case of the guitar.  
 
By recording a "flat" unvibrated sound, it enables the final  user to use it as well with a vibrato than without.
 
About electric guitar sound
 
Did you already connect an electric guitar (not electro-acoustic), without any effect or pedal, directly  to an hi-fi system ?
(I do not speak about a guitar amplifier, that distorts the sound and gives it a special timbre)
 
The sound is very strange, because there is no resonance on an electric guitar. Only the real string sound is heard, and the difference between one guitar to another is often mainly due to the difference in the built-in microphones.
 
About demo piece
 
Because an electric guitar is usually never played without FXs (distortion, reverb, flanger...), maybe the demo piece sounds strange. But adding effects won't help the listener to figure out how sounds the recorded instrument. Anyway, I repeat my request. If you have a short file that could be used as a good demo for electric guitar (or any other instrument) please feel free to send it to me.
 
Best Regards,
 
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Erling
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #27 on: Jun 24th, 2002, 4:30pm »
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Quote:
Effects like Vibrato MUST NOT be included in the Guitar sound itself. Maybe some instruments cannot be played without vibrato, but it is not the case of the guitar.

 
No, as you say, that's not the case with guitar, and that's way it does noke make any real sense having this discussion. No Real guitarplayer avoids manipulating the sound in some way or another.  
 
Quote:
maybe the demo piece sounds strange. But adding effects won't help the listener to figure out how sounds the recorded instrument.

 
No but it would help the listener to understand what might be achieved !  
 
Therefore I'll try to find time to make a 10sec demo or two both with and without effects and with different playing styles. That way we can all hear the difference, between a pure sample and the "manipulated"  end-result.
 
Regards
 
 
 
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #28 on: Jun 24th, 2002, 4:32pm »
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I'll send you some short file with the result I expect from Gold
 
French : je vous enverrai quelques fichiers mp3 avec un résultat de ce que j'attends (ce ne sont pas mes enregistrements, mais des courts extraits de chansons).
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Re: Candidate sounds for Gold Database - Demo page  
« Reply #29 on: Jun 24th, 2002, 8:53pm »
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Erling, yes, real guitarists manipulate the sound. But the sound itself, of the strings, is non-manipulated until they do manipulate it.
 
A sample is a recording. If that recording already contains artifacts of manipulation, then that manipulation cannot be easily removed. For instance, if vibrato were included in the sample, the only way to remove it would be to try to exactly match the vibrato rate, depth, delay, etc. with an exactly 180° phase-shifted vibrato of exactly the same parameters to counteract it. That, of course, would be impossible if the vibrato were generated by a human player, since the vibrato would not be of a consistent rate and depth, from a sine wave LFO. And even if the pitch shift of the vibrato could be counteracted that way, a typical guitar vibrato affects more than just the pitch (the pull on the string also brightens the tone, and lessening the tension mellows it). This would be much harder to counteract.
 
An analogy: adding salt to most foods while cooking them makes them taste better. But, if one of the people eating the food is on a no-salt diet and would suffer severe or even fatal health consequences from eating any salt at all, it is much easier for those who can add salt to add it themselves after it's cooked than for the person who can't eat salt to try to remove all of the NaCl molecules from his or her food after it's been cooked with salt.
 
Likewise, while a guitar sample containing such effects might sound realistic, it would only be a playback of how that particular guitarist played that guitar at that particular time. Even the same guitarist playing the same guitar note would play it differently in another piece, or even the same piece, for effect, or simply because it's humanly impossible to exactly duplicate a manual performance like that right down to the most subtle nuance (remember on one episode of "Star Trek: The Next Generation," how the android Data realized that his "mother," the wife of his creator Dr. Noonian Soong, was herself an android replacement of the original human even though she herself didn't know it? Because she performed the same violin concerto twice in his presence, with exactly the same nuances, which no human could possibly have done!), Data realized the truth. Yet, if the nuances are recorded into the sample, then that is precisely what will happen: every time that same note is played, regardless of musical style, the exact same nuances will be played as well. And that is most definitely not realistic (unless the performer is an android)!
 
The best solution is to have a "dry" sound, and use the numerous effects features (including the new curve-drawing features) of Melody or Harmony to put in the nuances you want when, where, and how you want them, based on the emotional content you are trying to convey with the piece at any given point in the song. Yes, this is more difficult and requires more effort to give a realistic effect, but it is much more flexible and, yes, realistic.
 
That said, sampling in general has limits in this regard. No matter how good the Gold Database is, it cannot be as good as real instruments. In the case of the guitar, using curve drawing, we can make the loudness, pitch, vibrato, some aspects of the tone [Bass and Treble levels -- basically a two-band EQ], distortion, etc. vary from note to note or even within a single note, as desired. But we can't duplicate some of the effects a real guitarist could do, such as how the tone actually changes when a given string is plucked with, say, the thumb vs. the same string plucked with the little finger (both due to the relative size, thickness, and softness of the fingertips themselves, and also of the different positions along the string that those fingers would be plucking at: the more towards the center of the string the plucking is done at, the mellower the tone, and vice-versa) -- not without having tons of samples, anyway, and some way to switch or crossfade between them appropriately. There are synthesis methods which can do such things (my PC's $15 sound card with on-board Physical Modelling synthesis can, for instance). More on this in another Topic.
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