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General >> Virtual Singer[français], le chanteur virtuel[/français] >> English pronunciation of 'bruised'
(Message started by: eduardo on Jun 22nd, 2017, 12:12pm)

Title: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by eduardo on Jun 22nd, 2017, 12:12pm
I could not get a proper pronunciation of the word 'bruised' taking two syllables. Eg. in the Handel Messiah choral "Surely He hath borne our griefs'. Could someone help me, please?

Title: Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by bubu42 on Jun 22nd, 2017, 3:26pm
Well, as far as I know, "bruised" is supposed to sound like one syllable : [bru:zd] with a long "u:" unless that was different in ancient times.
Let's wait for native speaker to throw some light on the subject.

Title: Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by Andre_B on Jun 22nd, 2017, 3:44pm
Eduardo,
are you looking to know what should be the right pronunciation (for a work of that time)?

Or do you know (or guess) how it should be pronounced, but fail in telling HA how to do it?

Title: Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by eduardo on Jun 23rd, 2017, 12:26am
to André_B: I heard several versions of this piece (Handel 'Surely He Hath Borne Our Griefs') and all of them pronounced two syllables: bruis - ed. I think this is quite common in choral music. And it is written with two syllables in the score.

Bur I cannot find a good way to write this (even using [  ] hidden text).

Title: Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by Andre_B on Jun 23rd, 2017, 8:15am
Indeed, it is the way it's written. But my question would be:

- which vowel in "bruis-"?   I would think of [#u:] as in "goose"
- which vowel for "-ed"? Could be  [#@] or [#i]
 

Title: Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by bubu42 on Jun 23rd, 2017, 9:55am
I'd go for SAMPA in that case and leave "brui-" for the first syllable and type "sed[#zId]" for the second syllable. VS will render the correct phonetics for "brui" and the second syllable will be forced by SAMPA.

Title: Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by SDoerr on Jun 23rd, 2017, 4:18pm
It's complicated...

In ordinary speech, bruised is a monosyllable /bru:zd/.

In older texts, particularly poetry, such words are often  treated as two syllables. A Shakespearian actor would most probably say /'bru:zId/.

In singing, people often prefer to replace /I/ (when spelt <e>) with either /E/ or /i:/, depending on the phonetic and etymological context. This is certainly my preference, so I would always sing /'bru:zEd/, unless the conductor specifically asked for another pronunciation.

--
Steve

Title: Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by Andre_B on Jun 23rd, 2017, 4:45pm
Steve,

I notice that the dash between syllables, in verbal forms (preterit or participle), is written after the full root, e.g. "bruis-ed" or "bruis-ing".
The Messiah score says "bruis-ed"

So I would respect this and write/pronounce [#bru:z-Ed], no?

Title: Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by SDoerr on Jun 24th, 2017, 10:25am

on 06/23/17 à 16:45:52, Andre_B wrote:
Steve,

I notice that the dash between syllables, in verbal forms (preterit or participle), is written after the full root, e.g. "bruis-ed" or "bruis-ing".
The Messiah score says "bruis-ed"

So I would respect this and write/pronounce [#bru:z-Ed], no?

Well, hyphenation in printed scores follows typographical conventions that differ from phonetic ones. (And phoneticians have different opinions about where syllable boundaries fall.) I don't think it matters for HA unless there is staccato involved, in which case I think most singers would save the /z/ until the second syllable, but I may be wrong.

--
Steve

Title: Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by Andre_B on Jun 26th, 2017, 4:29pm
The typographic hyphenation should indicate the phonetic one. This is generally the case in French, Italian, German, and I haven't experienced significant variations with English - though I have seen very strange occurrences in Italian and German, and particularly in German a difference in hyphenation induces a real phonetic difference (most recently seen "trö-sten" instead of "trös-ten" - leading to pronounce [#tr2:St@n] instead of [#tr2:st@n].

Singing should obviously follow the phonetic rules, and there is always (unless legato) a kind of "knacklaut" between words and syllables, even if it is almost unheard except in German (what I say, is that it should be in the singer's mind - and throat - even if it does not reach the listener ear).

The tendency to "save the z till the second syllable" seems to be a bad habit, as I feel it important to let the consonants sound "before the tense".

Title: Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by PaulL on Sep 24th, 2017, 6:31am
Syllabication in English is difficult even for native speakers.  In the first place, there is some divergence between typographic practice and actual speech (even more when the words are sung); secondly, the practices of English and American publishers are based on slightly different principles.

Thus, if possible, it is best to consult a reliable dictionary published in the country where you plan to disseminate your score.

In the case at issue, typography and pronunciation diverge.  The lyrics should read "bruis-ed," but you need to write "bruis[bru]-ed[zed]" or "bruis[#brU]-ed[#z@d]" to get VS to sing the word correctly.  In words like "bruised" that are normally monosyllables, VS does not handle the -ed well when it is turned into a second syllable.

Title: Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'
Post by eduardo on Nov 17th, 2017, 6:39pm
Thank you, Paul, it makes sense.



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