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Topic: SAMPA pronunciation of plurals (Read 186 times) |
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Tony Deff
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I do not have much experience of Virtual Singer, but it seems to me that SAMPA does not pronounce the final "s" of plural words
In the documentation example (English SAMPA), "yacht" (pronounced more like "yot"  ) is written as: yacht[#jQt].
Writing yachts[#jQts] or yachts[#jQtz] seems to make no difference.
I am having trouble hearing this word as plural: [!gb] ... emotions [/i]e[#i]-/mo[#m@U]-tions[#S@ns]
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Anglophone, HA 64 Win.10
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. — Groucho Marx
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ANdre_B
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Re: SAMPA pronunciation of plurals
« Reply #1 on: Jun 16th, 2026, 5:40pm » |
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I don't think the "offender" is Sampa (which just makes IPA typable on a regular keyboard), but probably the way VS "plays" the fragments which are behind the sampa/language pair.
Since the Sampa strings you show are "reasonable" (now the dictionaries usually don't show an IPA for plurals (nor conjugation/declination).
I often stumbled on a final #s which seems omitted, even after a vowel; actually, it isn't omitted, but simply played with unsufficient volume.
The easy circumvention which often works is to du- or triplicate the Sampa character, i.e. to write -tions[#S@nss]
I'll see if the volume of the fragment could easily (and efficiently) be increased.
As of the difference between yachts[#jQts] and yachts[#jQtz]. It is anyway slight - and particularly when the s's volume is too weak. I think that the "t" consonant may alter the "z".
A "tz" sequence is generally represented by a "Z", as it is common in German and Italian.
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André Baeck, de retour en Belgique après 12 ans passés dans le Gard.
Windows 11, HA 2026h1e (et précédents)
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ANdre_B
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Re: SAMPA pronunciation of plurals
« Reply #2 on: Jun 17th, 2026, 10:46am » |
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Tony,
I checked a bity what HA/VS was doing with these plurals (when no sampa exception is specified).
- the ending "s" of yachts is #s
- the ending "s" of emotions is #z
In French we say that some consonants are "sonore", such as d,b,z,
while they have counterparts t,p,s which are "sourdes".
Not sure of the English equivalents. And l,r,m,n are called "liquides".
The HA/VS conversion for an ending (plural) s is apparently always #z, except (#s) when following a consonant which is "sourde".
When listening, the #z is heard a bit better (the meaning of "sonore", of course). But anyway I hear something marking the plural - but that may depend on the voice selected. Doubling (#ss) is aloways good when manting to hear the plural better.
I couldn't remember yet in which piece I lately had an inaudible s.
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André Baeck, de retour en Belgique après 12 ans passés dans le Gard.
Windows 11, HA 2026h1e (et précédents)
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Tony Deff
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Thank you for this information — such a complicated subject, fragments and International Phonetic Alphabet.
I tried a dozen different combinations using #ss #sss #zs #zs — none sounded correct.
The duration of the note and the absence of volume reduction effect is critical.
Finally, what sounded acceptable was to give the 's' its own note & syllable.
As shown below, the implementation and the visual presentation are substantially different:
e[#i]-/mo[#m@US]-tion[#@]-s[#nzz] (written)
e[#i]-/mo[#m@US]-tions[#@]-[#nzz] (visually adapted).
The small eighth-note (croche) is shown here in grey for understanding only, but is rendered invisible by display = 0%
The dotted note is actually a normal quarter-note (noire) but its display is changed by Note Options > Splitting (Aspect de la note > Découpage)
As I said: such a complicated subject !
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Anglophone, HA 64 Win.10
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. — Groucho Marx
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ANdre_B
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Re: SAMPA pronunciation of plurals
« Reply #4 on: Jun 18th, 2026, 11:59am » |
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Tony, I'm not sure I'll follow you to that extent.
It is reasonable to reproduce and analyse little details of pronunciations on their own, so as to understand how it works.
However, actions potential should be evaluated with the considered words are integrated in their context. A singer does not come on stage to just sing a single word (even a plural form...) but to sing a whole piece, and (s)he is "appreciated" (rather than "evaluated") on the global performance.
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André Baeck, de retour en Belgique après 12 ans passés dans le Gard.
Windows 11, HA 2026h1e (et précédents)
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Tony Deff
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Re: SAMPA pronunciation of plurals
« Reply #5 on: Jun 18th, 2026, 2:23pm » |
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Naturally, the lyrics before and after this word have been cut as irrelevant.
They made no difference to the pronunciation,
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Anglophone, HA 64 Win.10
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. — Groucho Marx
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ANdre_B
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Re: SAMPA pronunciation of plurals
« Reply #6 on: Jun 19th, 2026, 11:01am » |
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Yes, I understand that they are irrelevant.
But there can be other elements in the score which influence the actual pronunciation, therefore I would like to get a .myr file in which you hear the problem (so to speak...).
Eventually to my mail address.
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André Baeck, de retour en Belgique après 12 ans passés dans le Gard.
Windows 11, HA 2026h1e (et précédents)
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