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Dec 18th, 2017, 12:45am 
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JP
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Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« on: Nov 21st, 2017, 2:05pm »
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Quelqu'un sait-il comment rendre le son "oi" du vieux français, quelque chose comme "ouai" en une seule syllabe?
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Andre_B
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Re: Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« Reply #1 on: Nov 21st, 2017, 4:17pm »
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J'ai cassé l'aiguille de phonographe qui me permettait d'écouter les disques de l'époque... je ne sais donc pas si tu attends un é ou un è à la fin.  
 
"ouai" ou "ouais" devrait convenir, ils font respectivement [#we] (é] et [#wE] (è) en une syllabe.  
 
C'est plus difficile s'il y a une consonne devant, car "çouai" et "çouais" vont tous deux faire deux syllabes. Il faudra probablement avoir recours aux sampa [#swe] ou [#swE].
 
On peut tricher et écrire "France ouais" ou "France ouai" - mais pour une fois que la consonne doit venir sur la 2e syllabe...  
 
Ca c'est la théorie (script "Conversion en phonétique"), mais à l'écoute c'est pas terrible...  il me mange mon w  
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JP
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Re: Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« Reply #2 on: Nov 21st, 2017, 5:03pm »
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Merci beaucoup  
J'ai deux mots à traiter: boi-re et toi-le
j'ai mis boi[#bwE]-re et toi[#twE]-le, ça semble coller
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PaulL
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Re: Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« Reply #3 on: Nov 22nd, 2017, 12:47am »
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Interesting discussion.  So is this why the spelling of "françois" mutated into "français"?  At what point did the shift occur?
 
My editions of Rabelais and Montaigne have the older spelling, would it be correct to assume the spelling reflects the pronunciation of the day?  Apparently my professors omitted some of the details . . .  
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Re: Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« Reply #4 on: Nov 22nd, 2017, 9:58am »
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D'après ce dont je me souviens de mes cours d'ancien français (mais ça remonte à pas mal d'années), c'est "é" et pas "è" en finale.
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Re: Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« Reply #5 on: Nov 22nd, 2017, 11:02am »
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on Nov 22nd, 2017, 12:47am, PaulL wrote:
Interesting discussion.  So is this why the spelling of "françois" mutated into "français"?  At what point did the shift occur?

Though the subject is clearly in the wrong part of the forum, may I add one answer ?
From what I know, the official shift from "oi" to "ai" dates back to the middle of the XIXth century. I once studied Voltaire's book "Le siècle de Louis XIV" in its original form and it included the mutation but I don't think it was "official" at the time he wrote it.
As for the explanation of the mutation, it is a matter of oral language. Over the centuries, people dropped the "o" sound of the diphtong and the written form had to adapt.  
An interesting source of investigation is ancient poetry and its rhymes (some words ending in "oi" could rhyme with a past participle in "é")
Another "funny" source is the way people from Quebec pronounce French. It sometimes reminds me of our local "patois" and I believe they are closer than us to the French spoken in past centuries, which of course doesn't mean that they are outdated !
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JP
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Re: Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« Reply #6 on: Nov 22nd, 2017, 10:31pm »
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I recently read an article on that subject, stating that the "big change" happened during the French revolution.
It seems that the common pronunciation had already changed before that period. The spelling changed according to the pronunciation.
I suppose something similar happened in English at some time.
I'm currently working with a text that spells:
    And by that bedes side there kneeleth a may

Seems to be very old English.
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Re: Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« Reply #7 on: Nov 27th, 2017, 3:11am »
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Merci, messieurs!  I'm sorry to have taken the thread in a wrong direction, but thank you for satisfying my curiosity.  The relation between orthography and pronunciation is a tricky one.  It always helps to know as much as one can.
 
As far as the divergence between English orthography and pronunciation is concerned, I will content myself with merely sharing my two favorite English names:
 
Featherstonehaugh = Fanshaw
 
Tagliaferro = Tolliver
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JP
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Re: Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« Reply #8 on: Nov 27th, 2017, 3:33pm »
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English and French are both languages for which no serious spelling reform has occurred, as opposed to other languages like Italian or Spanish.
Recent attempts to "simplify" the French spelling system have just resulted in making it more complex.
When you look at the way French people write their own language, you notice that the problem is not in spelling, but in the use of grammar, so any reform in spelling is toatlly vain.
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PaulL
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Re: Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« Reply #9 on: Nov 28th, 2017, 6:05am »
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on Nov 27th, 2017, 3:33pm, JP wrote:
English and French are both languages for which no serious spelling reform has occurred,  . . . .

 
Although French spellings are notoriously confusing to the uninitiated, the system is surprisingly unambiguous to those who have studied the language.  There is a much higher correspondence between orthography and pronunciation in French than in English, certainly!
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Andre_B
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Re: Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« Reply #10 on: Nov 28th, 2017, 8:04am »
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on Nov 27th, 2017, 3:33pm, JP wrote:
English and French are both languages for which no serious spelling reform has occurred (...)

 
But the real question is: why did these two languages change their pronunciation so much? Look at Italian and German, neither spelling nor pronunciation did change that much since the Renaissance (the pronunciation did change in the dialects, but not in the regular language).
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Re: Prononciation de "oi" en ancien français  
« Reply #11 on: Nov 29th, 2017, 1:51am »
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Well, in the case of English, there was this minor event in 1066 . . . .  
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