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   Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?
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   Author  Topic: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?  (Read 5766 times)
Ingeborg S. Norden
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Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?  
« on: Dec 4th, 2004, 5:09am »
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I've asked a related question in another topic, but...seeing what other users have done to get VS pronouncing "unlisted" languages properly, I'm wondering just how fragments could help my Swedish lyrics sound Swedish.  Phonetically, Finnish and German each have their "almost-but-not-quite" matches:  the former handles vowel and consonant length better, the latter allows me to get a proper /ng/ sound and more subtle distinctions between vowels.  I'm hoping that a fragments tutorial exists somewhere in the documentation; that would be a big help!
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Didier Guillion
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Re: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish  
« Reply #1 on: Dec 4th, 2004, 5:29am »
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Hi,
 
You can see this :
 
http://www.myriad-online.com/resources/docs/harmony/english/vsadv2.htm
 
Best regards
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Re: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?  
« Reply #2 on: Apr 3rd, 2007, 6:46pm »
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I'm still plugging away at making my Swedish lyrics sound like Swedish (and currently using version 9.22a).  Does that version have a way of combining fragments from different languages within the same word?  That seems like the only way to approximate the right sound without RealSinger (no microphone on my PC, sorry!)  For instance, take the opening lines of the song I'm currently using as a test (since I've got an old .wav of myself singing it)--
 
Om som-ma-ren skö-na, när mar-ken hon gläds
[Qm sQm mA rEn S2 nA n&r mArr kEn hun glEs]
 
vid Da-la två äl-var-na vi-da...
[vid da la tvO El vAr nA vi dA]
 
How would I combine fragments to get those phrases sounding acceptable?
 
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Re: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?  
« Reply #3 on: Apr 3rd, 2007, 8:13pm »
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Use fragments, not SAMPA. There is a tutorial about fragments (English only) posted on another message, in this VS forum.
 
You can combine fragments from different languages in the same word. You can adjust how each fragment sounds (the fragment will be identical each time it is used).
 
So, for example, if you wish to change a German short E so that it sounds "more Swedish" you can do it.
 
Unless you intend to mix German-Finnish-Swedish in one song, it is better to change existing fragments, instead of trying to create entirely new fragments.
 
I have done this, in English, for some of the sounds in the VS voices posted on this forum.
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Re: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?   dalvisan_test.mus
« Reply #4 on: Apr 3rd, 2007, 10:40pm »
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on Apr 3rd, 2007, 8:13pm, Robert_A. wrote:
Use fragments, not SAMPA. There is a tutorial about fragments (English only) posted on another message, in this VS forum.

 
Would you give me a link to that message, please?  I've looked all over the documentation for similar help, but could not find it.
 
Quote:
You can combine fragments from different languages in the same word. You can adjust how each fragment sounds (the fragment will be identical each time it is used).
 
So, for example, if you wish to change a German short E so that it sounds "more Swedish" you can do it.

 
That's good to know;  I've got some spoken .ogg files for the relevant Swedish fragments, if I can use those to create a new voice.  Granted, that voice is going to sing with an accent in the other languages which share those fragments, but it's worth the effort.
 
Quote:
Unless you intend to mix German-Finnish-Swedish in one song, it is better to change existing fragments, instead of trying to create entirely new fragments.

 
Understood; the compositions I've written/arranged use only Swedish, so I'll take your advice.  
 
Quote:
I have done this, in English, for some of the sounds in the VS voices posted on this forum.

 
OK, I'll give them a listen to get an idea of what you've done.
 
P.S.  I'm attaching the .mus file of this song as I've worked on it today.  If you want the .mp3 of my older recording, please let me know in a private message.  (Yes, VS guessed that the lyrics were Finnish... )
 
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Ooops...   dalvisan_test.mp3
« Reply #5 on: Apr 3rd, 2007, 11:09pm »
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Here's my second attempt at editing the lyrics (invisible SAMPA, some fragments still need changing) to make the lyrics sound correct.
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Re: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?  
« Reply #6 on: Apr 4th, 2007, 12:02am »
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The fragments tutorial is posted 9 messages lower down (earlier) on this VS forum. However, here is a direct link. It is not part of Myriad documentation:
http://www.icogitate.com/~thusiam/temporary/using_fragments.html
I do not have headphones with me today, so regrettably I cannot listen to your music today. In any case, I would not know if the Swedish pronunciation was correct.  
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Re: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?  
« Reply #7 on: Apr 4th, 2007, 12:20am »
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on Apr 4th, 2007, 12:02am, Robert_A. wrote:

I do not have headphones with me today, so regrettably I cannot listen to your music today.

Even with Mickey's ears ?  
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Almost there!   dalvisan_test3.mus
« Reply #8 on: Apr 4th, 2007, 2:42am »
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I went through the tutorial earlier today; it was pretty helpful, except that I had to page through VS's voice-editing menu to get a list of fragment codes.  Otherwise, I was able to get my file sounding about 75-80% like "proper Swedish" using existing fragments from four languages (whew!).  The rest, I'm afraid, will be impossible without editing the phonemes themselves; here's hoping I can indeed base a new voice on those .ogg files!  *keeps her fingers crossed*
 
P.S.  I've attached my latest version of the song file, for those of you who are willing and able to listen.
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Re: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?  
« Reply #9 on: Apr 4th, 2007, 4:33pm »
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ISN : I have downloaded your *.mus file, and will listen when I get the chance, later today.
 
UPDATE: I listened, and also looked at how you modified the lyrics. The vocal sound quality is good, but of course I cannot tell whether or not it is accurate Swedish.
 
I see that you modified some words using fragments, but other words used SAMPA.
 
Do you need the equivalent of German o-umlaut ? Unfortunately, the existing VS does not have anything that sounds correct (to my ear) for o-umlaut. You might try modifying the English fragment +ER.
« Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2007, 6:14pm by Robert_A. » offline
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Re: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?  
« Reply #10 on: Apr 4th, 2007, 11:57pm »
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Robert:  Swedish has three versions of the ö-vowel, two of which Virtual Singer covers reasonably well.
 
    The "closed ö" in skön [S2:n] 'beautiful' is equivalent to fragment "E2".
     
    The "open ö" in röst [r9st] 'voice' is equivalent to fragment "E9S" (since it's always short).
     
    It's the third ö-variant (before an r-sound, as in mörk [m9\rk] 'dark'), that I'd need to edit in myself.

« Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2007, 11:59pm by Ingeborg S. Norden » offline
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Re: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?  
« Reply #11 on: Apr 5th, 2007, 1:42am »
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Ah, that explains why VS tries to render the German o-umlaut as E2 or E9. Neither sounds correct to me. Maybe the dictionary was edited by a Swede ?  
 
For your third version, try starting with English +ER. It's not the same as German o-umlaut, but I believe it might be a good vowel as a starting point.
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Third time's the charm!   sv-oera.mp3
« Reply #12 on: Apr 5th, 2007, 3:48am »
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[Note to admins:  my browser kept giving error messages when I tried to post this message before.  Here's hoping my attachment makes it through this time; it was very small and a permitted type, so I don't know what went wrong.]
 
After listening to both the US and UK variants of that fragment, I thought neither of them sounded quite like the sound I'm after.  I'm attaching a sound file of the word öra 'ear' to give you a sample; is there a way for the editor to simulate the rounding and the openness of that first vowel?
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Re: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?  
« Reply #13 on: Apr 5th, 2007, 5:55pm »
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I will listen to your audio sample later today, and analyze it. Since I am at -8H GMT, please be patient.
I will also read this: http://www.speech.kth.se/prod/publications/files/qpsr/1969/1969_10_4_026 -031.pdf
« Last Edit: Apr 5th, 2007, 6:00pm by Robert_A. » offline
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Re: Fragments--would those help "clean up" Swedish?  
« Reply #14 on: Apr 5th, 2007, 11:44pm »
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After listening...
 
Try starting with Spanish +OS, or English +AW.
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