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Topic: lyrics problems in VS. (Read 1644 times) |
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Robert_A.
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Re: lyrics problems in VS.
« Reply #16 on: Jun 12th, 2004, 12:52am » |
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SAMPA is described in the Virtual Singer documentation. It is easiest to find by using the documentation left-column menu (in html frames) rather than by searching for "SAMPA."
The last time I checked (some time ago), fragments were not adequately documented. BUT... If you look in this VS forum for the thread about "Fr/Lat pronunciation problem" started Nov 28, 2003, my reply #1 gives you basic information about how to use fragments. I believe that COMALite J also described the somewhere.
Don't forget that SUNG phonemes are often different from SPOKEN phonemes. The VS dictionary only uses spoken phonemes.
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Edward Gold
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Re: lyrics problems in VS.
« Reply #17 on: Jun 12th, 2004, 12:14pm » |
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on Jun 12th, 2004, 12:52am, Robert_A. wrote:| Don't forget that SUNG phonemes are often different from SPOKEN phonemes. The VS dictionary only uses spoken phonemes. |
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I'm reminded that in a choral rehearsal that I once accompanied, the word "Gloria" was to be sung. The choral director told the group to sing "Claudia" (Cloudia) instead. On the Pretré recording of Poulenc's "Gloria" it is certainly sung that way.
I've also decided that the word "moving" is not spoken or sung with a strong gutteral at the end but there is something. Maybe a not-too-strong k sound would work.
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COMALite J
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Re: lyrics problems in VS.
« Reply #19 on: Jun 13th, 2004, 8:24am » |
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One of the easiest ways to fix many common problems with VS pronunciation is to try another dialect for your singers. For English, you have two to choose from: US and UK. I have found that for most purposes, UK English gives better results even for songs written in US dialect.
US English is appropriate mainly for Country-Western or Old Southern type dialect. Among other things, it replaces "-ing" with "-in," while UK English definitely pronounces the "-ng". Also, "r" as a vowel dipthong (e. g. "er", "ir", "ur", etc.) is much more strongly pronounced in US English than in UK English, and it is generally preferred in singing to not over-pronounce "r"s. There are other differences as well.
Just from using UK English instead, I almost never have to resort to even altered spelling in square brackets (the few places I do are usually places where I have, for printing purposes, used a true single closing quote as an apostrophe, and that can sometimes trip up the VS text-to-fragments algorithm), let alone SAMPA or Fragments. I rarely use the US English dialect anymore.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 13th, 2004, 8:27am by COMALite J » |
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Edward Gold
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Re: lyrics problems in VS.
« Reply #20 on: Jun 13th, 2004, 12:02pm » |
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on Jun 13th, 2004, 8:24am, COMALite J wrote:| One of the easiest ways to fix many common problems with VS pronunciation is to try another dialect for your singers. For English, you have two to choose from: US and UK. I have found that for most purposes, UK English gives better results even for songs written in US dialect. |
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I have used UK for both Dover Beach and Crossing the Bar, especially since the poems are both British. (Matthew Arnold and Alfred Lord Tennyson.) My older Vocal Writer files didn't have the option.
Thanks,
Ed
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Robert_A.
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Re: lyrics problems in VS.
« Reply #21 on: Jun 14th, 2004, 12:05am » |
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COMALiteJ is correct - UK English is preferred. Eddy is correct: "Gloria" should be closer to "Claudia."
For the Latin (or, any language) short "r," you can change the length and volume of the phoneme (or simply substitute the "d.") I did the for my RS files, to some extent.
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Edward Gold
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Re: lyrics problems in VS.
« Reply #22 on: Jun 14th, 2004, 1:24am » |
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on Jun 14th, 2004, 12:05am, Robert_A. wrote:COMALiteJ is correct - UK English is preferred. Eddy is correct: "Gloria" should be closer to "Claudia."
For the Latin (or, any language) short "r," you can change the length and volume of the phoneme (or simply substitute the "d.") I did the for my RS files, to some extent. |
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I've never been too sure how to do that. But, actually, that brings up another point: in the "Carillon" file I put online, (and here I actually edited the instruments in addition to the voices.), I use a Latin pronunciation for a Greek Kyrie. Here it works fine when the second and third syllables of "eleison" are in quarters but the third syllable I think should be pronounced more like "ee" (eh-ee-son) when it is a half note and the phonetics don't work here. I probably need to use this syllable from another pronunciation. But I have left it for the moment.
Ed
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| « Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2004, 2:34am by Edward Gold » |
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COMALite J
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Re: lyrics problems in VS.
« Reply #23 on: Jun 14th, 2004, 6:59am » |
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Keep in mind that you can also change languages (and dialects, of course) within a song. To do this, you use a VS language-switching command. As detailed in the "{installation directory}\docs\{your language}\vscmd.htm" file (which you can also view using the Help system from within the program), these commands consist of a left square bracket ([), an exclamation point (!), a language abbreviation specifier, and a right square bracket(]). Examples include "[!gb]" for UK English ("gb" stands for "Great Britain"), "[!us]" for US English, "[!frnord]" for Northern French, "[!frsud]" for Southern French, and "[!latin]" for -- well, I'll let you figure that one out. :-) All of the languages that VS supports has such a command.
This would enable you to do something like this:
[!gb]An-gels we have /heard on high,
/sweet-ly sing-ing /o'er[oer] the plain.
/And the moun-tains /in re-ply,
/e-cho-ing their /joy-ous strains:
/[!latin]Glo-----/-----/-----/-ri-a /in ex-cel-sis /de-o,
/Glo-----/-----/-----/-ri-a /in ex-cel-sis /de--/o./
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| « Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2004, 7:01am by COMALite J » |
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Robert_A.
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Re: lyrics problems in VS.
« Reply #25 on: Jun 14th, 2004, 5:53pm » |
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Most languages allow a change in the number of syllables, to fit the music. So, regardless of pronunciation, the Greek eleison might be sung as e-le-i-son or e-lei-son depending on the notes. Other examples:
In one of our hymns, the English "called" is sung as "call-ed" to fit two notes at different pitches. It sounds much better than stretching the one syllable "called" over two pitches.
In French, mute "e" at the end of a word is sometimes sung, if it fits the melody.
In Spanish and Italian, a word ending in a vowel (as most do) is often joined to the beginning of the following word, so that one less note is sung.
Back to the Latin "Gloria" as "Claudia": Think of the way the airstream must be interrupted. The true "G" and "R" are made deep in the throat, which is a great change in the shape of the vocal tract. But a somewhat-G sound can be made with the tongue, and a somewhat-R transient sound (between vowel syllables) can be made with the tongue. These do not require much change in the vocal tract. The somewhat-G may sound a bit like hard C, and the somewhat-R may sound a bit like a trilled D. This sort of substitution is routinely done in formal singing.
When I first tried to record my voice for Real Singer, using my low register, I was puzzled at how I was unable to achieve some vowels. I supposed that I was suffering from a chest cold. Later, I realized that I was trying to record "spoken" phonemes that I do not sing below a certain pitch - I use substitutes.
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Robert_A.
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Re: lyrics problems in VS.
« Reply #27 on: Jun 15th, 2004, 12:26am » |
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In fact, there was a time when I would only listen to art songs NOT in English, so that the pronunciation was irrelevant (couldn't understand it).
My least-favorite recordings of some Bach cantatas are by German chorales. They sound too German. 
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Robert_A.
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Re: lyrics problems in VS.
« Reply #28 on: Jun 15th, 2004, 12:28am » |
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... and that reminds me: In Wagner's Parsifal, most of the opera takes place on a depressing Good Friday, and is sung in German. In the final act, it is Easter, and the singing changes to Italian. 
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| « Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2004, 12:28am by Robert_A. » |
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Edward Gold
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Re: lyrics problems in VS.
« Reply #29 on: Jun 15th, 2004, 1:06am » |
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That reminded me further that I was at Lincoln Center Library on Saturday and an insane thought went through my head: I looked up the miniature score of Mahler's 8th which really begins in Latin and ends in German. I was thinking how it might be possible to do the whole thing in Harmony Assistant-Virtual Singer.
But then I decided, even if I had oMeR, I'd better put that out of my mind with its 24 staves and huge choruses and soloists. Maybe in another life!
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| « Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2004, 1:08am by Edward Gold » |
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