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Willie N
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Breathing points in VS  
« on: Jun 7th, 2004, 9:31pm »
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I have been putting some VS songs on CD as trial for teaching tracks with some success.
 
I have been asked if it is possible to put in a sort of miniscule break to indicate a breath point, without changing the music eg a rest.. This can be down graphically in some notation programmes.
 
Altering the rest dial of the voice characteristics helps to some extent, but a slight pause just to indicate breathing would be helpful.
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2004, 12:17pm by Willie N » offline
Wim Corduwener
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Re: Brething points in VS  
« Reply #1 on: Jun 7th, 2004, 10:21pm »
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Hi Willie,
I'm not really a singer (and perhaps it's a incredibly silly answer) but would it be an idea to use a simple rest with, any symbol you want, above the rest?
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Wim Corduwener
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Re: Brething points in VS  
« Reply #2 on: Jun 7th, 2004, 10:56pm »
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on Jun 7th, 2004, 10:52pm, Eddy wrote:
Sorry, I see you noted that.

Hi Eddy,
It's also possible to edit your posted message and "modify" it.
In that case you get that little message under your post.
« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2004, 10:57pm by Wim Corduwener » offline

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Laurier
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Re: Brething points in VS  
« Reply #3 on: Jun 7th, 2004, 10:56pm »
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In the Mark Tools #1 palette, you will find a coma (,) which is the symbol to indicate to the singer(s) it is the place to breath when the context alone doesn't make it obvious, but you can use it even if it is obvious. You will also find that if you use some Real Singer voices made with version II, and if the beat is not too fast, you will hear your singer(s) take that breath when the coma is reached, just like a real singer. You can hear a sample in a song I made involving these features at:
 
http://pages.infinit.net/azza/2003/tumregardais.html
« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2004, 10:57pm by Laurier » offline

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Wim Corduwener
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Re: Brething points in VS  
« Reply #4 on: Jun 7th, 2004, 11:04pm »
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Chapeau Laurier!
I'm really not a great fan of Virtual Singer, but this piece of music sounds not bad at all.
I can hear the breath, and that makes it much more natural!
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Re: Brething points in VS  
« Reply #5 on: Jun 7th, 2004, 11:10pm »
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Another trick I've used successfully is to use the "volume release" in the same Mark tool palette. This lets the volume of the voice to be reduced over a short period of time, just like some singers do in real life, they don't usually always cut every note short, they simply release the volume slowly on the note. I've used this feature in these example. Although you can't see them in the score since I hid the symbol, but you can easily hear it in the voices as well as in some instruments part.
 
http://pages.infinit.net/azza/2003/kyrieathee.html
http://pages.infinit.net/azza/2003/ohyesiknow.html
http://pages.infinit.net/azza/2003/ledepart.html
« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2004, 11:19pm by Laurier » offline

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Re: Brething points in VS  
« Reply #6 on: Jun 7th, 2004, 11:14pm »
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on Jun 7th, 2004, 11:04pm, Wim Corduwener wrote:
Chapeau Laurier!
I'm really not a great fan of Virtual Singer, but this piece of music sounds not bad at all. I can hear the breath, and that makes it much more natural!

 
Thanks a lot Wim! I'm glad you like it. But you see, VS needs a bit of work to make it sound good, but with patience and sweat, you can get some good results.
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Re: Brething points in VS  
« Reply #7 on: Jun 7th, 2004, 11:27pm »
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on Jun 7th, 2004, 11:14pm, Laurier wrote:
VS needs a bit of work to make it sound good, but with patience and sweat, you can get some good results.

The music I've heard so far was very mechanical, like a singing robot. And for me it was not very tempting to work with Virtual Singer.
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Willie N
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Re: Breathing points in VS  
« Reply #8 on: Jun 8th, 2004, 12:34pm »
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Thanks for all the replies.
 
The response on this forum is fantastic with everybody trying to help. thanks also for the tip on correcting a message after it is posted.
 
To Wim
 
I am making these files as teaching aids and it is just as important for a singer to know when to breathe as when to sing. The original scores were produced using a keyboard which doesn't need to breathe and so the music just went on and on.
 
Putting in rests affect the music, breathing should not, as not all pieces of music have rests, but the singers stilll need to breathe. Setting the rest control too low resulted in stopping at the end of each bar setting it too high resulted in VS singing through rests. I needed another way.
 
I notice you think the VS robotic. It can sound quite good with adjustment of the voice characteristics, but a lot depends on the fluency of the original score as well.  
 
Thanks for all the help.
 
Willie N
 
 
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Wim Corduwener
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Re: Breathing points in VS  
« Reply #9 on: Jun 8th, 2004, 12:59pm »
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on Jun 8th, 2004, 12:34pm, Willie N wrote:
I notice you think the VS robotic. It can sound quite good with adjustment of the voice characteristics, but a lot depends on the fluency of the original score as well.

Hi Willie. I think I've heard the wrong pieces made with Virtual Singer.  
 
My own passion is to use Melody in a way that music sounds as natural as possible. For example, if I use a flute (or harmonica), I need some breathing too. Before I use a rest in the score to let the "player" get some breath. But perhaps I should use the coma (,) to give it a more natural sound.
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Edward Gold
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Re: Breathing points in VS  
« Reply #10 on: Jun 8th, 2004, 3:13pm »
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I had set up my Dover Beach file and two rather fussy listeners thought: 1. it sounded quite natural and not robotic at all.
2. a singer said that the beginning fooled him but that you could hear the robotic quality later on.
3. various others thought it was pretty good for what it did.  
 
I too think these replies are very helpful since they are things I've been concerned with myself. But I'm again having problems, mostly with text and will put that under a separate topic.
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Re: Brething points in VS  
« Reply #11 on: Jun 8th, 2004, 3:19pm »
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on Jun 7th, 2004, 10:56pm, Wim Corduwener wrote:

Hi Eddy,
It's also possible to edit your posted message and "modify" it.
In that case you get that little message under your post.

Wim,
 
I'm not sure what you are referring to!  
 
Ed
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Re: Breathing points in VS  
« Reply #12 on: Jun 8th, 2004, 3:37pm »
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on Jun 8th, 2004, 3:13pm, Eddy wrote:
I had set up my Dover Beach file and two rather fussy listeners thought: 1. it sounded quite natural and not robotic at all.

Eddy, I was not referring to your music... I was referring to some music.
 
About Modify
In the upper right corner of a posted message, there are two options: "Quote" and "Modify". With Modify you can edit your posted message. So you don't have to do a new post if just want to change a few words in your posted message...
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Re: Breathing points in VS  
« Reply #13 on: Jun 8th, 2004, 4:29pm »
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on Jun 8th, 2004, 3:37pm, Wim Corduwener wrote:

Eddy, I was not referring to your music... I was referring to some music.
 
About Modify
In the upper right corner of a posted message, there are two options: "Quote" and "Modify". With Modify you can edit your posted message. So you don't have to do a new post if just want to change a few words in your posted message...

 
Wim,
 
No, I didn't think it had to do with my music and I put in that message about Dover Beach only for input into the robotic problem. In other words, I'm saying that by modifying the voice settings you can make considerable improvements to the sound even if it doesn't totally solve the problem.
 
But thanks, I get the point.
 
Ed
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Willie N
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Re: Breathing points in VS  
« Reply #14 on: Jun 8th, 2004, 4:54pm »
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I am glad my topic is getting interest even though some points are unrelated.
 
to Laurier
 
I tried your suggestion, but only the "comma" seemed to work. the "release volume" did not seem to have any effect.  
 
I think the comma pause is a bit excessive, is the duration adjustable as far as you know?
 
I'll keep plugging away
 
Willie
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