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Nov 23rd, 2017, 6:11am 
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eduardo
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English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« on: Jun 22nd, 2017, 12:12pm »
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I could not get a proper pronunciation of the word 'bruised' taking two syllables. Eg. in the Handel Messiah choral "Surely He hath borne our griefs'. Could someone help me, please?
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Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« Reply #1 on: Jun 22nd, 2017, 3:26pm »
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Well, as far as I know, "bruised" is supposed to sound like one syllable : [bru:zd] with a long "u:" unless that was different in ancient times.
Let's wait for native speaker to throw some light on the subject.
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Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« Reply #2 on: Jun 22nd, 2017, 3:44pm »
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Eduardo,  
are you looking to know what should be the right pronunciation (for a work of that time)?  
 
Or do you know (or guess) how it should be pronounced, but fail in telling HA how to do it?
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eduardo
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Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« Reply #3 on: Jun 23rd, 2017, 12:26am »
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to André_B: I heard several versions of this piece (Handel 'Surely He Hath Borne Our Griefs') and all of them pronounced two syllables: bruis - ed. I think this is quite common in choral music. And it is written with two syllables in the score.  
 
Bur I cannot find a good way to write this (even using [  ] hidden text).
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Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« Reply #4 on: Jun 23rd, 2017, 8:15am »
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Indeed, it is the way it's written. But my question would be:
 
- which vowel in "bruis-"?   I would think of [#u:] as in "goose"  
- which vowel for "-ed"? Could be  [#@] or [#i]
  
« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2017, 8:16am by Andre_B » offline

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Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« Reply #5 on: Jun 23rd, 2017, 9:55am »
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I'd go for SAMPA in that case and leave "brui-" for the first syllable and type "sed[#zId]" for the second syllable. VS will render the correct phonetics for "brui" and the second syllable will be forced by SAMPA.
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Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« Reply #6 on: Jun 23rd, 2017, 4:18pm »
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It's complicated...
 
In ordinary speech, bruised is a monosyllable /bru:zd/.
 
In older texts, particularly poetry, such words are often  treated as two syllables. A Shakespearian actor would most probably say /'bru:zId/.
 
In singing, people often prefer to replace /I/ (when spelt <e>) with either /E/ or /i:/, depending on the phonetic and etymological context. This is certainly my preference, so I would always sing /'bru:zEd/, unless the conductor specifically asked for another pronunciation.
 
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Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« Reply #7 on: Jun 23rd, 2017, 4:45pm »
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Steve,  
 
I notice that the dash between syllables, in verbal forms (preterit or participle), is written after the full root, e.g. "bruis-ed" or "bruis-ing".  
The Messiah score says "bruis-ed"  
 
So I would respect this and write/pronounce [#bru:z-Ed], no?  
« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2017, 4:46pm by Andre_B » offline

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Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« Reply #8 on: Jun 24th, 2017, 10:25am »
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on Jun 23rd, 2017, 4:45pm, Andre_B wrote:
Steve,  
 
I notice that the dash between syllables, in verbal forms (preterit or participle), is written after the full root, e.g. "bruis-ed" or "bruis-ing".  
The Messiah score says "bruis-ed"  
 
So I would respect this and write/pronounce [#bru:z-Ed], no?  
 

Well, hyphenation in printed scores follows typographical conventions that differ from phonetic ones. (And phoneticians have different opinions about where syllable boundaries fall.) I don't think it matters for HA unless there is staccato involved, in which case I think most singers would save the /z/ until the second syllable, but I may be wrong.
 
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Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« Reply #9 on: Jun 26th, 2017, 4:29pm »
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The typographic hyphenation should indicate the phonetic one. This is generally the case in French, Italian, German, and I haven't experienced significant variations with English - though I have seen very strange occurrences in Italian and German, and particularly in German a difference in hyphenation induces a real phonetic difference (most recently seen "trö-sten" instead of "trös-ten" - leading to pronounce [#tr2:St@n] instead of [#tr2:st@n].  
 
Singing should obviously follow the phonetic rules, and there is always (unless legato) a kind of "knacklaut" between words and syllables, even if it is almost unheard except in German (what I say, is that it should be in the singer's mind - and throat - even if it does not reach the listener ear).  
 
The tendency to "save the z till the second syllable" seems to be a bad habit, as I feel it important to let the consonants sound "before the tense".
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Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« Reply #10 on: Sep 24th, 2017, 6:31am »
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Syllabication in English is difficult even for native speakers.  In the first place, there is some divergence between typographic practice and actual speech (even more when the words are sung); secondly, the practices of English and American publishers are based on slightly different principles.
 
Thus, if possible, it is best to consult a reliable dictionary published in the country where you plan to disseminate your score.
 
In the case at issue, typography and pronunciation diverge.  The lyrics should read "bruis-ed," but you need to write "bruis[bru]-ed[zed]" or "bruis[#brU]-ed[#z@d]" to get VS to sing the word correctly.  In words like "bruised" that are normally monosyllables, VS does not handle the -ed well when it is turned into a second syllable.
« Last Edit: Sep 24th, 2017, 6:36am by PaulL » offline

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eduardo
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Re: English pronunciation of 'bruised'  
« Reply #11 on: Nov 17th, 2017, 6:39pm »
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Thank you, Paul, it makes sense.
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